I Wanna Be The Forums!

General Category => Serious Discussion! => Topic started by: Cantavanda on June 29, 2015, 05:33:43 pm

Title: Gay rights, Christianity, Islam. America is doomed.
Post by: Cantavanda on June 29, 2015, 05:33:43 pm
So pretty much, gay marriage is equal, as you all know.
The reactions of religious people are outrageous. Huge Christian hypocrytes, like Joshua Feuerstein, have been attacking the statement, and have been predicting a "Christian Holocaust." What that is, is that they think they will get exterminated by the governement. To be honest, I really believe that is going to happen, but not by some magic prediction, but because they're causing it theirselves. They're being so freaking intolerant against other peoples opinions. The worst thing is that they are breaking laws of the Bible, while criticising it. Like, they're JUDGING THE HEARTS of other people, fellow Christians that accept the new law, or gays. By for example saying "You are not a real Christian," or "You WILL burn in hell," which, are one of the worst things you can ever say as a Christian, and this comes from a Bible studier like me.
There are two huge wars raging in America now, not real gunwars, but more word and protest wars.
The Gay-War, and the Race-War.
And it is all going in a really, really bad direction.
It is really going to lead to a disaster, with Christians possibly getting punished for being homophobic. That will be the Christian holocaust, in my opinion.

But, there is also the Islam, and that might become a huge fear for the pro-gays. That might end up really, really bad.
While at the same time, blacks will attack whites, and whites will attack blacks.

I'm really getting scared of this. It's only getting worse and worse every day, with new articles showing up every day on my Facebook newsfeed.
And the worst of all, this might spread to more and more countries.

What do you think?
Are we doomed? What is your current opinion on the situation?
Discuss.

Ah, this really distracts me from my crappy home situation ATM
Title: Re: Gay rights, Christianity, Islam. America is doomed.
Post by: infern0man1 on June 29, 2015, 05:48:01 pm
I was just in Orlando for a UMY conference with my youth group this past week; overall, the reactions to  this recent event have been rather positive from what I have witnessed myself.

People really are overreacting negatively to this; I don't know if anyone has heard this, but about a week ago a pastor promised to set himself on fire if gay marriage were to be legalized, and indeed he went through with it.

At the conference, there was a wall where people could write stuff; at some point someone had written 'God hates fags' on it; it really bothers me that one can find this at a conference consisting of United Methodists, which I believe is probably among the most progressive protestant denominations.

People just don't think through it all and take on the opinions of their parents because they just don't care; they don't think logically; they don't make any attempt at developing their own opinioms by themselves.
Title: Re: Gay rights, Christianity, Islam. America is doomed.
Post by: Pokota on June 29, 2015, 07:52:53 pm
It's because people get so hung up on people burning in hell for their sins (THANK you, Dante) that they forgot that what made Christianity a novel thing back in the day was that its moral code was preventative in nature as opposed to retributive. We were never supposed to condemn the sinner, but because early Christianity got eaten* by the political environment that was Post-Democracy Rome (whose moralistic code was retributive) it took on the trappings of Judaism of all things by reinstating the Mosaic Law in order to be more accessible to those who didn't get to hear Christ and his Apostles firsthand.

*Think I'm kidding? The reason the Bishop in Rome became the Pope wasn't entirely because of him getting his Priesthood Authority directly from the Apostles - ALL of the Bishops in the Mediterranean appointed in the first fifty years can claim that - but also because he had land in Rome that he was able to use for funding the evacuation of local Christians. Protocatholicism literally got eaten by Rome, but Rome got a baaaad case of indigestion out of it in the long run.

Also, for a more Mormon perspective of things, the Bishop in Rome (and the various other Bishops appointed by the Apostles) had authority on the same level as John the Baptist - call to repentance, teach of Christ, lead the people. Authority on the level of the Apostles (and Moses and Abraham and Nathan and Elijah and...) died out with the last of the Apostles. If you're further interested in the Mormon viewpoint I'd suggest Apostasy from the Divine Church by James L Barker if you can manage to get a hold of it. It's not the officially endorsed viewpoint but it comes close enough for my purposes.
Title: Re: Gay rights, Christianity, Islam. America is doomed.
Post by: Katz on June 30, 2015, 12:22:53 am
ITT of religion: I've got a distinct feeling that Pope Francis will lay several ideals in the placemat.

1. Gay marriage: It's marriage, henceforth it is AOk in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church

2. Rulings against pederasty: Zero tolerance for pederasty in the Church's commutal stasis, especially from priests and bishops all over.

3. Animals (as well as many other living beings) go to heaven: This differentiates from countless Post-Protestant beliefs of specific ethnical and/or species making the quota of "Salvation."

4. Tolerance to Islamic and/or differing faiths and/or attributal characteristics: This, being the biggest of all four, puts a peace-seeking face on the Church, rather than Benedictian radicalisms and "traditions."

If said viewpoints become canonical (which it indubitably will), Catholicism, as a whole, will be moreover a grandeur change in socio-religious viewpoints, as well as common, every-day views.
Title: Re: Gay rights, Christianity, Islam. America is doomed.
Post by: Cantavanda on June 30, 2015, 11:42:24 am
Yes, the pope is the best one yet, and will surely say those things, but that does not mean that a lot of Catholics will follow that. IMO
Title: Re: Gay rights, Christianity, Islam. America is doomed.
Post by: Pokota on June 30, 2015, 05:50:32 pm
And now for more Mormonism being shoved into your faces.

1. Gay marriage: Eh, mixed bag here. On the one hand, we can't actually endorse it because it is literally in exact opposition to what eternal life is for us, which is being a set of Heavenly Parents in our own course should we prove worthy of it. On the other hand, we also believe in Agency and that everyone is to be allowed to make their choices - but they must deal with the consequences of their choices. That's also why the church is for the most part against Abortions when you take the dead babies argument out of it.

2. Rulings against pederasty: Zero tolerance for pederasty. Actually, to expand a little there's (supposed to be) zero tolerance for sexual activity outside of marriage, regardless of if it's het, homo, or pedo (though I'm personally of the opinion that there's a special punishment set aside for active pedos).

3. Animals (as well as many other living beings) go to heaven: This one's a weird one to explain. We do have modern revelation on the matter but it still boils down to "Of course they get to go to Heaven, they can't sin." It's a bit more complex than that (we actually believe that Christ will reign personally on the Earth and that the Earth will be renewed and receive its paradisaical glory, which is just a long winded way of saying "Earth will eventually die and be resurrected in full glory", and it stands to reason that the Animals will still be here afterwards)

4. Tolerance to Islamic and/or differing faiths and/or attributal characteristics: At present it's a mixture of "Live and Let Live" and "Call Them To Repentance." We're not to condemn anyone for anything - that's God's prerogative and He's got a far better frame of reference for condemning folks than we ever could - but still are to teach and call to repentance.
Title: Re: Gay rights, Christianity, Islam. America is doomed.
Post by: Valkema on July 01, 2015, 10:43:55 am
Doesn't the bible only say gay sex between two men is bad? Like I don't recall anything about marriage or lesbians.
Title: Re: Gay rights, Christianity, Islam. America is doomed.
Post by: [redacted] on July 01, 2015, 05:12:06 pm
Doesn't the bible only say gay sex between two men is bad? Like I don't recall anything about marriage or lesbians.

This is pretty huge, as I've never seen that either. Then again we may be talking loopholes in a universe where a omnipresent being overseas everything...
Title: Re: Gay rights, Christianity, Islam. America is doomed.
Post by: Pokota on July 01, 2015, 06:16:16 pm
Doesn't the bible only say gay sex between two men is bad? Like I don't recall anything about marriage or lesbians.
It specifies homoandrist relationships because of the cultural perceptions of women at the time; also bear in mind the second chapter of the first Epistle (letter) of Paul the Apostle to Timothy (http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/1_tim/2) which basically says that Women will be saved based on how good they are at being Mothers (and at the time there wasn't any Artificial Insemination so it was literally "get a guy or die trying"). Homogyny was quite an unthinkable idea to them, while Homoandry was very visible - remember that they were preaching to Greeks as well as Romans.
Title: Re: Gay rights, Christianity, Islam. America is doomed.
Post by: Venser on July 07, 2015, 06:15:19 pm
It is really going to lead to a disaster, with Christians possibly getting punished for being homophobic. That will be the Christian holocaust, in my opinion.

But, there is also the Islam, and that might become a huge fear for the pro-gays. That might end up really, really bad.
While at the same time, blacks will attack whites, and whites will attack blacks.

I'm really getting scared of this. It's only getting worse and worse every day, with new articles showing up every day on my Facebook newsfeed.
And the worst of all, this might spread to more and more countries.

What do you think?
Are we doomed? What is your current opinion on the situation?
Nothing will happen. Sure, there might be some isolated cases of violence, but that's nothing new; for the most part nothing will change. The underlying feeling of great panic, momentous action, and massive shift is a classic media tactic. It's what news agencies of various kinds, be it TV, online, newspaper, etc., have used for decades because they can no longer sell their stories without it for the most part. The most exciting stories are the ones that sell.

No one wants hear about how the majority of the population doesn't give a shit that the supreme court made one decision or another. That's why you don't hear about 99% of the cases the court rules on, because they can't possibly be made into a story people would want to hear. In this particular case, because there is a small minority which is upset about the ruling (which, by the way, they cannot possibly do anything about - there is no legal recourse to a SCOTUS decision), it can be made into a story. And so the story gets pumped up to the extreme, drawn as close to a hysterical panic report as it can be. There you have it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming there's some mass conspiracy amongst the media to hype this up. I'm just stating a fact - once the media started to hype up irrelevant stories and push real stories as hard as they could go, they couldn't go back, because people don't want to go back to reading about the same old boring shit they heard about before. So every story has to be framed as if it is the next big thing, a big panic, a huge discovery, a tragic tale, or whatever the most dramatic thing it can be made into is.

Look at it as a mainstream media arms race in terms of excitement, and you'll see what I mean. It really makes news stories quite boring, because you realize that a substantial percentage of press reports are so stretched as to be barely representative of the truth. Even reports or articles that aren't totally blown out of proportion are certainly stretched here and there to make the narrative flow better.

As far as my actual opinion on the subject (and not simply on the hype around the subject), like I said, no one cares. The whole thing is ridiculous anyway; it's extremely archaic that there are legal benefits to being married in the first place, and there's no real reason for marriage to be a legal construct at all. Even the few arguments that can be made for marriage as a legal construct (inheritance, power of attorney, and Social Security being the main ones) are pretty flimsy. Inheritance and power of attorney can be solved by making it a legal requirement for all citizens to have a will and specify power of attorney, and Social Security transferring to a living spouse is an archaic concept which can be done away with.

At the end of the day, though, there are currently legal benefits to marriage (even if I think that makes absolutely no sense), so it does makes sense to allow anyone to marry anyone, regardless of gender.
Title: Re: Gay rights, Christianity, Islam. America is doomed.
Post by: shitty name fixed on July 07, 2015, 10:44:42 pm
So one thing I don't understand is how did the supreme court make gay marriage legal? If it's a law, I thought only the president could make laws
Title: Re: Gay rights, Christianity, Islam. America is doomed.
Post by: Katz on July 07, 2015, 11:12:18 pm
It all goes to the Legislative system
Title: Re: Gay rights, Christianity, Islam. America is doomed.
Post by: shitty name fixed on July 07, 2015, 11:30:05 pm
It all goes to the Legislative system
You're right, you're right, that's what I meant. How exactly did the supreme court "legalize" gay marriage though?
Title: Re: Gay rights, Christianity, Islam. America is doomed.
Post by: infern0man1 on July 08, 2015, 12:42:46 am
It wasn't necessarily legalized, but rather the bans on gay marriage in the states were found unconstitutional and the states were forced to remove those bans.
Title: Re: Gay rights, Christianity, Islam. America is doomed.
Post by: Venser on July 09, 2015, 01:57:18 am
So one thing I don't understand is how did the supreme court make gay marriage legal? If it's a law, I thought only the president could make laws
Wrong on pretty much every count, but explaining why involves a fair bit of education on the US government system.

So the US government is divided into three branches - Legislative, Judicial, and Executive. The idea of the separation of powers is to prevent the uprising of a tyrant/despot/monarch and also to prevent issues that had been prevalent in other systems of divided government that had been tried previously (mainly the Republic of ancient Rome and the Athenian democracy). In reality, especially in the modern day, the line between the branches has been blurred, especially between the Legislative and Executive branches.

The Legislative branch is Congress, which is two pieces, the Senate and the House of Representatives. Essentially, these two bodies of many Senators and Representatives elected by their home states are the lawmakers. For something to become federal law in the US, it must be submitted to either the Senate or the House as a bill, then sent to committee, very often undergoing many changes in the process. Once it makes it through committee, it has to be voted on, and then even if it passes one body, it then has to pass in the other as the exact same bill. If similar (but slightly different) versions of a bill pass both bodies, there is a process called reconciliation, but it's a bit complicated and I won't get into it.

Basically, once the bill passes a vote in both the Senate and the House of Reps, it's law from that point on, with a couple of exceptions I'll get into later.

Then there's the Executive branch. This is the smallest branch, and it originally just consisted of the President. Nowadays, it has come to encompass the President and his Cabinet. The idea of the Executive branch is to execute the will of the government. That is why the President, who is a civilian, is the supreme commander of the US armed forces. Additionally, that role was (in theory) designed to make a military takeover of the government more difficult. The current President is always in charge of the military, so to overthrow the government they would have to start with their own leader.

One very common misconception is that the President can make laws. This is not true. The President has some control over the Legislative branch (again, I'll get into that later), but cannot actually make laws himself. What the President can do is issue an Executive Order, which is a catchall term for the mandate of the President. Mostly these have to do with the armed forces; for example, executive orders both created and repealed the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy amongst US military. They can also do other things, but again that's a bit more technical and I won't get into it here.

Other powers do come with the Executive branch; the founding fathers were aware that in times of crisis, dissenting opinions can be very detrimental to the nation's ability to act, so the President can, in theory, take direct command of the armed forces and government in general for a limited period of time when necessary. This power is rarely used (I believe last used by Bush after 9/11), and there is a time limit that I have forgotten by which the President must justify himself to Congress.

Finally, there's the Judicial branch, which consists mostly of the Supreme Court, although technically all federal courts are part of the Judicial branch of the US government. In reality, the overwhelming majority of the constitutional duties of the Judicial branch are done by the Supreme Court, and the more mundane, day-to-day issues are dealt with by the lower levels of the federal court system. What exactly the Supreme Court does is a bit complicated and is best described in general terms: they interpret the law.

So, in super general terms, the Legislative branch makes the law, the Judicial branch interprets the law, and the Executive branch enforces the law.

However, the founding fathers were very wary of this system working in isolation. So they implemented what are referred to now as "checks and balances"; that is, each branch has ways they can "check" or "balance" the powers of the other branches, in order to prevent one branch from becoming too powerful. The most famous example is the Presidental veto; any bills signed into law by Congress must be signed by the President. If he does not sign, he vetoes the bill, which sends it back to Congress. But Congress can override a veto with a sufficiently substantial majority (2/3 required in both the Senate and the House of Reps, rather than just the >50% required for the bill to pass normally). The President and Congress also have checks on the Judicial branch because they control the judges that get assigned to the Supreme Court for life. The President must nominate candidates, which Congress must approve.

Now that you understand all this, I can explain the Supreme Court decision: the Supreme Court interprets the law, and in this case they were dealing with a court case over whether a state's law that banned same-sex marriage was Constitutional. Understand that the Supreme Court is not supposed to determine what is right or wrong, just what is according to the Constitution, so once they state something is unconstitutional, it is gone. That is the reason that Supreme Court decisions are such a big deal: once they determine something one way or the other, the issue is closed and it is determined constitutional or unconstitutional (until the Constitution changes, of course, which has not happened in quite a while).

In this case, by a narrow vote of 5-4, the Supreme Court determined that by the 14th Amendment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution), which primarily states that all citizens must have equal rights, banning same sex marriage is unconstitutional because it denies certain citizens rights that other citizens have. Therefore, all state-based bans on gay marriage were instantly repealed and can never be reinstated.

Most modern-day governments are based on the Constitution, so this type of government is what most countries use nowadays, with their own modifications, of course.
Title: Re: Gay rights, Christianity, Islam. America is doomed.
Post by: LOLGAMMER on October 22, 2016, 06:11:23 am
FUCK