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[Valkema]

Here is where IMO all fangames have failed. If a fangame has something that I said fangames don’t have, chances are I haven’t played your game. Also I do respect other peoples opinions although you might think I don’t so anyways please respect mine.

 First off what did iwbtg have, simple platforming surrounded by traps that are meant to give you a chuckle when you die but ultimatly once you've seen the trap you should be able to dodge it every time. The main points where I die now in iwbtg are not from traps but from just the hard platforming segments (and trying to pull off precise speed tricks). Traps in iwbtg, I'm not sure if anyone but me noticed, but they are more placed towards the beginning of a segment, when you get towards the end of a segment traps just really aren't there, The only times he placed traps near the end were in secret item rooms and the final tower of the guy but in the final tower of the guy, that trap is so funny that it makes up for it.

Not one fangame has ever had good trap placement. And most fangames traps are stupid, unfunny, hard to dodge. Fangames are loaded with precise jumps that just make a game overly hard. And although some fangames have creative ideas with how to platform, they don’t turn the game into simple platforming all it does is make the game more complex then what it should be, I haven’t seen one fangame with a new idea that hasn’t made the game more complex when it comes to platforming. Keep your ideas out of fangames, if you have a new and creative idea why are you making a fangame anyways shouldn’t you just go and make your own game.

Also on the subject of moving spikes, if you notice always before a spike falls on you, it shakes a bit which adds to the effect of them, they don’t just fall like what happens in all fangames.

On the subject of invisible and fake blocks go look at the only rooms in iwbtg that have them and look at what types of rooms they are. And maybe you’ll see how BS it actually is.

Now on the subject of level design. In iwbtg screens feel connected and not like they were all made one at a time. If you look at the starting areal for iwbtg there are 3 different sections, underground, ground level and sky and they all feel connected, if you notice the background changes as you move up on ground level there is grass and in the sky there are clouds and everything flows together nicely.

Where as in fangames, pickory showed this and that was the part where you get the super obvious secret, and iwsys’s ninja gaiden area. But a lot of fangames don’t just have areas that don’t flow together, a lot of them have screens that are fragmented and condence the player in small spaces and basically extend gamplay by have too many segments in one room.

Now im not going to get into bosses that much but all I have to say about them are in fangames bosses don’t really feel alive and a lot of times they just aren’t threatening. Take iwbtk’s shadow devil for example, it has not animation besides for when moving across the room, and its small leaving a lot of waisted space at the top and in this situation the room feels too open.

I coud rant about a lot more like, how flash games, freeware games, new gen games aren’t games that you should rip off (oh wait I just did), but I covered everything I really wanted to cover oh and why I am posting this in a new topic in the other games section is because I want people to read it, If I posted it in the how to make a good fangame topic probably 5 people would read it.

[Storyyeller]

Didn't Kayin go through most of that on his blog already?

[Valkema]

Didn't Kayin go through most of that on his blog already?

you mean the blog about 5 people read? yeah, most of it though is still my opinion I just happen to have the same opinion as kayin, nothing wrong with that is there?

[Fred-eye-inc]

This is the main reason I started making "Bliss" instead of my fangame. I quickly realised fangames are shit and that I'd made my fangame so much different it was practically a new game. It's transformed from a pixel platformer to a cel-shaded metroidvania type game.

Must admit Anon even though I think sometimes you fail to appreciate the good side of some fangames your perfectly right about it all, I agree with everything you just said 100%.

[Kudo.]

I think I should address a few points, although I do agree whole-heartedly with a good majority of this.

Here is where IMO all fangames have failed. If a fangame has something that I said fangames don’t have, chances are I haven’t played your game. Also I do respect other peoples opinions although you might think I don’t so anyways please respect mine.

 First off what did iwbtg have, simple platforming surrounded by traps that are meant to give you a chuckle when you die but ultimatly once you've seen the trap you should be able to dodge it every time. The main points where I die now in iwbtg are not from traps but from just the hard platforming segments (and trying to pull off precise speed tricks). Traps in iwbtg, I'm not sure if anyone but me noticed, but they are more placed towards the beginning of a segment, when you get towards the end of a segment traps just really aren't there, The only times he placed traps near the end were in secret item rooms and the final tower of the guy but in the final tower of the guy, that trap is so funny that it makes up for it.

Not one fangame has ever had good trap placement. And most fangames traps are stupid, unfunny, hard to dodge. Fangames are loaded with precise jumps that just make a game overly hard. And although some fangames have creative ideas with how to platform, they don’t turn the game into simple platforming all it does is make the game more complex then what it should be, I haven’t seen one fangame with a new idea that hasn’t made the game more complex when it comes to platforming. Keep your ideas out of fangames, if you have a new and creative idea why are you making a fangame anyways shouldn’t you just go and make your own game.

Agreeing completely with the trap portion, I need you to re-look over what you have down for platforming. Remember IWBTG was made as a game that was supposed to be unfair BUT still good enough to keep the people playing. So I'm not sure whether you're calling IWBTG's difficult platforming areas good or bad, since you seem to address it as bad if it's a Fangame with those precise jumps and such. That needs more "It's not as good in fangames because..." rather than "because it's in a fangame, it's bad." Actually re-reading this...I can't quite say I agree with what you have for complex or new ideas. Those have to be used to distinguish Fangame to Fangame. If everything was just the same when it came to the platforming, why even bother making ANY game in the first place? Fan or original. It'd be a "played one and you've played them all situation." It's bad enough we can address most of the fangames as the same already (one doesn't have to wonder long why tijit regrets IWBTE).

Also on the subject of moving spikes, if you notice always before a spike falls on you, it shakes a bit which adds to the effect of them, they don’t just fall like what happens in all fangames.

It'd be noticable to point this out to the section of the room left of the beginning room in IWBTG: the last set of spikes shake but don't fall. However, it's usually the side-ways and upwards spikes that cause the problems.

Again, everything else I have little to no issues with.

Didn't Kayin go through most of that on his blog already?

you mean the blog about 5 people read? yeah, most of it though is still my opinion I just happen to have the same opinion as kayin, nothing wrong with that is there?

Opinions, opinions. It's all perspective: one could say and believe "yes, there IS something wrong with that, it means your brain is unoriginal and malleable to believe anything some other game maker thinks" while another can believe "not a problem, it's common for minds to think alike." (Personally, I'm with the latter of the two)

[Valkema]

Agreeing completely with the trap portion, I need you to re-look over what you have down for platforming. Remember IWBTG was made as a game that was supposed to be unfair BUT still good enough to keep the people playing. So I'm not sure whether you're calling IWBTG's difficult platforming areas good or bad, since you seem to address it as bad if it's a Fangame with those precise jumps and such. That needs more "It's not as good in fangames because..." rather than "because it's in a fangame, it's bad." Actually re-reading this...I can't quite say I agree with what you have for complex or new ideas. Those have to be used to distinguish Fangame to Fangame. If everything was just the same when it came to the platforming, why even bother making ANY game in the first place? Fan or original. It'd be a "played one and you've played them all situation." It's bad enough we can address most of the fangames as the same already (one doesn't have to wonder long why tijit regrets IWBTE).

I could have worded what I meant and expanded on it a bit better, mostly my complaints were that in fangames, although I don't mind that they try to make a game harder than IWBTG, But it is that they are going overboard with the difficutly and not making it fun for you to play. Lots of times they are just a jump that is a few pixels of room for error over and over again, I don’t think its bad to have that once in a while even though just it is over used and makes the game rather boring to play. So difficutly being to great and boring platforming basically makes the player not want to continue the game. IWBTG had the occasional precise part in it but iwbtg did that just enough not to make the player quite playing the game but keep them playing. So in other words I think fangame creators don’t know where to stop.

I honestly don’t mind fangames having creative parts to it but I feel that they are putting stuff in that really shouldn’t be in a fangame. I do like the game pickory but I believe it ultimatly fails at being a fangame for this reason. Puzzles really just shouldn’t be in fangames. Simple unfair and fun platforming is why I enjoyed iwbtg and all fangames have utlimatly failed at this. Now I probably wouldn’t mind puzzles too much if the game wasn’t a fangame of iwbtg but because it is supposed to be a fangame of a game that is about simple unfair and fun platforming that is what I want to see when I play fangames.

[dcx666]

Your opinion is yours but I see this differently...

-All fangames are free...Bashing free stuff is pretty selfish and qutie frankly extremly rude
-If you havent tried making a game how the heck do you even know how to make a good game
-if you hate fangame so much...leave the forums....things havent changed for about a year or two

If I have to respect your opinion I EXPECT YOU TO RESPECT MINE!!!!

[Valkema]

-All fangames are free...Bashing free stuff is pretty selfish and qutie frankly extremly rude

So me telling people what I think they have done wrong with their game so they could one day make it better is being rude?

-If you havent tried making a game how the heck do you even know how to make a good game

I'm the person playing the game so shouldn't I know what makes a game fun and what doesn't

-if you hate fangame so much...leave the forums....things havent changed for about a year or two

because the forums are totally 100% about fangames

[Storyyeller]

So what's wrong with referencing freeware and flash games? Just because IWBTG is all about really old games doesn't mean you have to copy it in every way.

[Fred-eye-inc]

Until I cancelled my fangame it had area of new games and freeware games i'd seen. Boshy has a VVVVVV area. I agree with storyyeller completely.

[Valkema]

in reality there is nothing wrong with it but I personally for whatever reason don't like it

I didn't talk about because I don't really use it as a negative when judging fangames it just kinda annoys me for some reason

[Kudo.]

Agreeing completely with the trap portion, I need you to re-look over what you have down for platforming. Remember IWBTG was made as a game that was supposed to be unfair BUT still good enough to keep the people playing. So I'm not sure whether you're calling IWBTG's difficult platforming areas good or bad, since you seem to address it as bad if it's a Fangame with those precise jumps and such. That needs more "It's not as good in fangames because..." rather than "because it's in a fangame, it's bad." Actually re-reading this...I can't quite say I agree with what you have for complex or new ideas. Those have to be used to distinguish Fangame to Fangame. If everything was just the same when it came to the platforming, why even bother making ANY game in the first place? Fan or original. It'd be a "played one and you've played them all situation." It's bad enough we can address most of the fangames as the same already (one doesn't have to wonder long why tijit regrets IWBTE).

I could have worded what I meant and expanded on it a bit better, mostly my complaints were that in fangames, although I don't mind that they try to make a game harder than IWBTG, But it is that they are going overboard with the difficulty and not making it fun for you to play. Lots of times they are just a jump that is a few pixels of room for error over and over again, I don’t think its bad to have that once in a while even though just it is over used and makes the game rather boring to play. So difficulty being to great and boring platforming basically makes the player not want to continue the game. IWBTG had the occasional precise part in it but iwbtg did that just enough not to make the player quite playing the game but keep them playing. So in other words I think fangame creators don’t know where to stop.

Summing this up really quickly: it's the increased frequency of the pixel-perfect requirement areas in fangames that bothers you. Completely understandable. Just keep in mind that fangames are usually made in mind with the parts that stood out to them in the original: IWBTG is notable for people remembering the difficult pixel perfect areas and traps. Thus these things become more frequent in Fangames. Then, creators of said fangames usually input what they believe to be more fitting, but that leads to the next portion.

I honestly don’t mind fangames having creative parts to it but I feel that they are putting stuff in that really shouldn’t be in a fangame. I do like the game pickory but I believe it ultimately fails at being a fangame for this reason. Puzzles really just shouldn’t be in fangames. Simple unfair and fun platforming is why I enjoyed iwbtg and all fangames have ultimately failed at this. Now I probably wouldn’t mind puzzles too much if the game wasn’t a fangame of iwbtg but because it is supposed to be a fangame of a game that is about simple unfair and fun platforming that is what I want to see when I play fangames.

Alright, now HERE'S a more opinionated portion. I'll respect your opinion so I won't bash it out or anything. I'll just state my beliefs on the subject: Fangames are also made with the creator's ORIGINAL input to become distinguished, and enjoyable in their own way regardless of the original base (or IWBTG in this case). Fangames would probably be quite boring if they were all based on the same balance each and everytime. They'd blend to become the same, and as I said earlier, become a "played one and you've played them all" situation. Then again, even IWBTG had it's moments of going offtrack, brick-breaker, vic-viper, so I don't see any problem with throwing in a new concept or genre every here and there. Variety is key.

-All fangames are free...Bashing free stuff is pretty selfish and qutie frankly extremly rude

So me telling people what I think they have done wrong with their game so they could one day make it better is being rude?

Correction, what would make it better in YOUR view. But if I've interpretted dcx666 properly, he's trying to say something along the lines of "don't bite the hand that feeds you." Like if you're given free food, and you think the giver could have done better, even constructive criticism would be exceptionally rude.

-If you havent tried making a game how the heck do you even know how to make a good game

I'm the person playing the game so shouldn't I know what makes a game fun and what doesn't

Again, from the way you've worded it, no. You should only know what makes a game fun TO YOU. Even with opinions, one must know the limits of how much opinion to force on one another. In other words, respect the fangame creators' opinion of what makes a game good or not. Another point of fangames is making the game with a base of IWBTG as you like: if you like fangames that work with simple platforming with some unfairness here and there, you could make a fangame yourself with just that.

-if you hate fangame so much...leave the forums....things havent changed for about a year or two

because the forums are totally 100% about fangames

BWAHAHAHAHA, OH BOY. I'm sorry, but this just takes the cake. I'm not going to be nice here since this deals with FACTS not opinions. Clearly you haven't looked around much so I'll save you the effort and loosen up a bit of your ignorance: The Forum Statistics
Fangames are in "Other Games" since General Games just has all the mass-post topics (A couple of counting threads, short Q&A, RPs, Mafia, etc.). Fangames are less than 10% of this forum. There are even "regular" members that disregard the board completely.

[Storyyeller]

BWAHAHAHAHA, OH BOY. I'm sorry, but this just takes the cake. I'm not going to be nice here since this deals with FACTS not opinions. Clearly you haven't looked around much so I'll save you the effort and loosen up a bit of your ignorance: The Forum Statistics
Fangames are in "Other Games" since General Games just has all the mass-post topics (A couple of counting threads, short Q&A, RPs, Mafia, etc.). Fangames are less than 10% of this forum. There are even "regular" members that disregard the board completely.

I'm pretty sure that was sarcastic.

[Venser]

-if you hate fangame so much...leave the forums....things havent changed for about a year or two

because the forums are totally 100% about fangames

BWAHAHAHAHA, OH BOY. I'm sorry, but this just takes the cake. I'm not going to be nice here since this deals with FACTS not opinions. Clearly you haven't looked around much so I'll save you the effort and loosen up a bit of your ignorance: The Forum Statistics
Fangames are in "Other Games" since General Games just has all the mass-post topics (A couple of counting threads, short Q&A, RPs, Mafia, etc.). Fangames are less than 10% of this forum. There are even "regular" members that disregard the board completely.

Kudo. Turn your sarcasmdar on.

[Valkema]

I honestly don’t mind fangames having creative parts to it but I feel that they are putting stuff in that really shouldn’t be in a fangame. I do like the game pickory but I believe it ultimately fails at being a fangame for this reason. Puzzles really just shouldn’t be in fangames. Simple unfair and fun platforming is why I enjoyed iwbtg and all fangames have ultimately failed at this. Now I probably wouldn’t mind puzzles too much if the game wasn’t a fangame of iwbtg but because it is supposed to be a fangame of a game that is about simple unfair and fun platforming that is what I want to see when I play fangames.

Alright, now HERE'S a more opinionated portion. I'll respect your opinion so I won't bash it out or anything. I'll just state my beliefs on the subject: Fangames are also made with the creator's ORIGINAL input to become distinguished, and enjoyable in their own way regardless of the original base (or IWBTG in this case). Fangames would probably be quite boring if they were all based on the same balance each and everytime. They'd blend to become the same, and as I said earlier, become a "played one and you've played them all" situation. Then again, even IWBTG had it's moments of going offtrack, brick-breaker, vic-viper, so I don't see any problem with throwing in a new concept or genre every here and there. Variety is key.

True variety is key but I would like to see really creative ideas in games that aren’t fangames of iwbtg. Normally though when fangames are made of a game there aren’t hundreds of them so variety usually isn’t a big deal, And I know that iwbtg did get off track sometimes but fangames seem to go too far with it when they do go off topic so that’s my problem.

-All fangames are free...Bashing free stuff is pretty selfish and qutie frankly extremly rude

So me telling people what I think they have done wrong with their game so they could one day make it better is being rude?

Correction, what would make it better in YOUR view. But if I've interpretted dcx666 properly, he's trying to say something along the lines of "don't bite the hand that feeds you." Like if you're given free food, and you think the giver could have done better, even constructive criticism would be exceptionally rude.

Read the bolded word, and yeah when you compare it to that it seems rude so I can’t really argue that sometimes even constructive critism can seem rude.

-If you havent tried making a game how the heck do you even know how to make a good game

I'm the person playing the game so shouldn't I know what makes a game fun and what doesn't

Again, from the way you've worded it, no. You should only know what makes a game fun TO YOU. Even with opinions, one must know the limits of how much opinion to force on one another. In other words, respect the fangame creators' opinion of what makes a game good or not. Another point of fangames is making the game with a base of IWBTG as you like: if you like fangames that work with simple platforming with some unfairness here and there, you could make a fangame yourself with just that.

I worded that very badly but from what I interpretted from his state ment was my opinion was completely wrong. Games are supposed to appeal to the player and well I should of used the term player instead of me because basically he was saying that you have to make a game to know what makes a game fun and that’s just not right.

-if you hate fangame so much...leave the forums....things havent changed for about a year or two

because the forums are totally 100% about fangames

BWAHAHAHAHA, OH BOY. I'm sorry, but this just takes the cake. I'm not going to be nice here since this deals with FACTS not opinions. Clearly you haven't looked around much so I'll save you the effort and loosen up a bit of your ignorance: The Forum Statistics
Fangames are in "Other Games" since General Games just has all the mass-post topics (A couple of counting threads, short Q&A, RPs, Mafia, etc.). Fangames are less than 10% of this forum. There are even "regular" members that disregard the board completely.

Sarcasm