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Author Topic: Is Glitching a game Cheating?  (Read 17531 times)

Valkema

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2011, 12:23:17 am »

If the glitch gives you more of a chance to beat the enemy, the level, or any other part of the game, it is cheating.

Simple enough.
So... the Superslide to keep the Master Sword at the Ganon fight is cheating? (here is a video of what I mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awzeIw-MymM)

Also what about the Power Crouch Stab to 1 cycle Gohma? (btw to do this just enter the room by jump-slashing with a deku stick, stun gohma and crouch stab her 3 times.) is that cheating?

Does it give you a better chance to beat the enemy?
If it does: it is cheating.

So using that logic. Alot of things are cheating that are considered legitment. Like the trick used to once cycle wrath in majora's mask. All you do is jump attack. Is that cheating? All you do is just jump attack over and over again. An intended move put into the game for the use of hurting enemies.
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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2011, 12:51:51 am »

If the glitch gives you more of a chance to beat the enemy, the level, or any other part of the game, it is cheating.

Simple enough.
So... the Superslide to keep the Master Sword at the Ganon fight is cheating? (here is a video of what I mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awzeIw-MymM)

Also what about the Power Crouch Stab to 1 cycle Gohma? (btw to do this just enter the room by jump-slashing with a deku stick, stun gohma and crouch stab her 3 times.) is that cheating?

Does it give you a better chance to beat the enemy?
If it does: it is cheating.

So using that logic. A lot of things are cheating that are considered legitimate. Like the trick used to once cycle wrath in majora's mask. All you do is jump attack. Is that cheating? All you do is just jump attack over and over again. An intended move put into the game for the use of hurting enemies.

Ok. Look back the FIRST POST of this quote train. I've bolded something. That's Sodra's definition though. Mine...varies...depending on the context. What about multiplayer games where both players use the glitch? Or only one of them? Or one who doesn't know how to use said glitch as well? (For example: What "PRB" means in Mario Kart DS)
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Kayin

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2011, 01:35:20 am »

Sodra fucking sucks.

First off, if it's a single player game and anything you do is part of the game as programmed and designed, I can't possibly consider it 'cheating', unless it's some sort of explicit cheat (cheat menus and the likes). Your personal desires might dictate a personal line to you, but if anyone say, looks at me play Super Metroid and watch me mockball around and use the murder beam and yells "CHEATER!", well, they can go fuck themselves. Developer intent is HIGHLY overrated. Are exploiting enemies patterns in ways the developers didn't intend, cheating? Is the oversight in their code a 'glitch'? Is not leveling up in Oblivion to keep enemies weaker than you cheating, even though it's using the system exactly as designed? Is that in any way practically different from a glitch? Either way, who gives a fuck? Play your single player game any way you damn well feel like. If you like to play straight up, in a way you think the developers intended, have fun, many developers put together a pretty darn good experience. If you have fun breaking a game over your knee and then seeing what weird shit the game does, that's awesome and I will enjoy watching your TASs on youtube.

Multiplayer games are a different story, but generally, as a competitive guy, my opinion is "Glitches by default are okay unless they prove to be stupid". Also if your glitch only serves to troll people and ruin their experience, you got a good chase for complaining. But in either case, it's not a matter of 'cheating'. Us fighting game players use glitches all the time. In fact, many game systems developed from glitches, such as basic combos. Many developers have embraced bugs and made them features (Kara Canceling, and Jump Canceled Ultras in SF4) and if they decide not to and remove the bug in later versions, no one cries foul on the folks who used the bug previously, in the same way no one cries foul on the people who used any move that got nerfed in the new version.

The line, and it's a fuzzy line, are things that completely undermine the game. A bug that crashes the game, or glitches your player off the stage permanently or other nonsense generally isn't approved of... But at the same time, if it somehow leads to fun gameplay, perhaps it'll still be accepted.
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arcticfox1985

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2011, 02:01:41 pm »

I agree completely with Anon and Kayin.
I've always been accused of cheating any time I use a glitch. [The reason my sister and I would stop playing Sonic 3 competition is I'd always use Tails to glitch into the ceiling of balloon park and win in like 10 seconds.]

I say if anyone can do it, it's fair game, no matter how difficult it is to pull off. There are certain glitches that may require a TAS level of accuracy and luck to pull off, but I still don't consider them cheating. Honestly, I think the people that do call glitching cheating are not good enough to pull off the moves themselves or they have some kind of moral thing where they think they have to play the game "the right way." --That's fine, whatever.

I don't know what to say here, really. It depends how you define cheating. Some people consider Screen-looking cheating, even though anyone in the room can do it. It's cheap, yes, but I'd say it's only cheating if there's some kind of House Rule established that screen-lookers will be punched in the jaw.

As for speedruns, do whatever the hell you can to get through the game as fast as possible. It's like the character is so badass he could beat the game way faster than regular controls could (I'm thinking, if it was a movie, each room would be complete in like 5-10 seconds, breaking the games rules).

Doesn't SpeedDemosArchive have a topic about this about what they consider cheating? I stand by my belief that if it's part of the program, it's the way the game is played. [Case: I destroyed YoSniper's first game. I'm pretty sure he acknowledges every glitch I found as his own fault, but never accused me of cheating.]

Anyways, to anyone who I may have offended, uhh no offense. I can understand why you may think certain glitches are h4x. I was once like that.

EDIT: I'm on the fence about lag-created glitches. In Halo PC, you can break the fourth wall by disconnecting your internet temporarily to send vehicles rocketing across the map. This isn't even a programming glitch of the game, but of the game hosting service. This is why these discussions get really complicated.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 02:05:31 pm by glitchmethod »
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Evan20000

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2011, 02:13:41 pm »

I would consider the halo glitch the equivalent of cartridge-tilting. If it happens in multiplayer, then I don't think anyone has any business doing that though.
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arcticfox1985

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2011, 02:42:53 pm »

Yeah, I agree. The Halo Stunting Community counts Warp Launching as cheating, although we do use it to test ideas.
I've changed my mind, by the way. Glitching is cheating. I've said it several times myself as a throw-away comment. It's just that Cheating is such a derogatory term, and there are several categories of cheating.
You've got your cartridge tilting/internet disconnecting type stuff,
you've got your in-game unlockable cheat codes that may make the game harder or easier.
you've got your button codes that unlock cheats intended for testers (like the button codes in Goldeneye),
there's the game genie/shark/AR codes that screw with the game's memory,
the glitch that technically circumvents the game's rules as establish by the coding,
the cool tricks like BXR and wave-dashing that weren't intended and are counted as glitches (whether they are or not is debatable),
the go-so-fast the character's sprite warps through a wall due to the game working frame-by-frame instead of real-time-motion like real life - which is just how games work, I suppose,
and a whole slew of other things I don't care to delve into.

Glitching is cheating, technically. No need to get upset about it. Just classify your speedrun as heavy glitch abuse.

[and btw, we don't use warp-launching in multiplayer battles. We stunters keep to special "Stunting" servers, where all we do is try to create badass tricks, glitches, stunts. Using these tricks in regular gameplay usually leads to bans, as it really is unfair to regular players. While regular players COULD learn the tricks themselves, some of them are very difficult to teach and we can't show everyone how to do them. We kinda keep stunting completely isolated from fighting, unless we state in the rules that glitching is allowed. It really is a House Rules kinda thing, as I stated before. -It's also a major matter of opinion. All players really have to decide on a universal meaning of cheating, glitching, legitimacy, etc., which may or may not be impossible with so many different viewpoints out there.]

Anyway, I use any means to beat my games. Cheating or not, I saw the ending means I beat it. I might need to beat it without certain bugs to make the game harder and a more impressive feat...just to show people I know what the hell I'm doing. Skill levels and all that. This topic has stayed surprisingly calm. Impressive.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 02:51:56 pm by glitchmethod »
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Evan20000

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2011, 02:46:42 pm »

So now that we've established that; would you consider glitching cheating if it actually made your life harder? One example that springs to mind is an AR code I like to use with FF12 that makes every enemy in the game Lv99.
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arcticfox1985

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2011, 02:55:11 pm »

And that, my friend, is what makes this such a hard topic to discuss. It seems my logic is flawed. I think it's supposed to be if cheating makes the game easier.

Just like Enemy Rockets makes Goldeneye freakin hard. The game still calls it Cheat Select Mission.

--but an AR code isn't glitching, it's modding.

EDIT: and I'm back to saying glitching ISN'T cheating. It's just that sometimes, it can be cheap.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 10:09:32 pm by glitchmethod »
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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2011, 03:03:00 pm »

So now that we've established that; would you consider glitching cheating if it actually made your life harder? One example that springs to mind is an AR code I like to use with FF12 that makes every enemy in the game Lv99.

Well...that specifically is a cheat code, which as the name entitles it, is a cheat, but also a self-imposed challenge. Similar to people who use codes to fight multiple bosses at once in Kingdom Hearts. Enjoyable and acceptable. A GLITCH would be overriding the winner's rooms in Chain of Memories to affect the boss battles the happen just outside of the world exit.

You could use Almighty Darkness to make the bosses a pill to deal with, or Feeble Darkness to shove everything into your favor (or some other cards to shove different things into your favor...)
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Kinata

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2011, 03:39:44 pm »

Well I think everything depends on what you want to do. If you're playing a game solely for fun, then do whatever the hell you want. If you're trying a challenge, however, it depends on what your conditions are. If you're playing I Wanna Be The Guy, and you use autofire to win, they you can declare that you beat the game using no cheats other than autofire. Similarly, if you use cheats to make a game harder, than you can declare you won that challenge, which happens to be more impressive than the regular challenge of winning the game.

I guess the only reason people have a problem is that there is this concept of a "legit" way to win a game. If the creator gives a list of rules as to what "legit" means, there's no problem. Otherwise, I guess it's a matter of your opinion or the opinion of the community, depending on who you're trying to "impress". I generally feel that hacking is cheating and exploits (i.e. things that makes sense given the game's programming and are the fault of poor level design) are legit. Glitching should be taken on a case-case basis. If a glitch makes a game harder or has no actual effect on gameplay, it's legit. Otherwise, I think it just matter of how easy it is to use and how big the effect. If a glitch is hard to use and makes an effect that you have to be skilled or clever to use to some degree of success, it's OK, but if it just warps you to the end, that's unaccepable.
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Valkema

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2011, 03:47:10 pm »

Definition of Cheating: 1. Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, esp. in a game or examination

So it just comes down to what you consider to be dishonest. To some people dishonestly would be playing the game in any other way but how it is meant to be played. Others like myself would consider anything anyone can't do without external software/hardware.

So it just comes down to what you consider to be unfair or dishonest.
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Dagnarok

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2011, 04:30:39 pm »

'Dishonest' seems like a vague word though. :/

I mean, I could example Grumble Volcano from Mario Kart Wii, and being able to beat the course in under thirty seconds. >_<  Some people continually pick the course, just so they can do that; sure, you need a mushroom to pull it off, but so what?  Being a race in thirty seconds is never acceptable.  If I truly wanted to be stingy, I could go with DK Summit and jumping over the chasm to shave 2-3 seconds off your time; and it would still fit my definition of 'dishonest'.
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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2011, 04:35:00 pm »

Exactly Rag. Because of stuff like this in games there are normally rules set out of what counts as cheating or you could say "dishonest", however in that case this definition doesn’t really help us much. Maybe it suggests that the rule-makers dishonest should be layed out and that should be what counts or just that what is generally considered "dishonest" should count as cheating.
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Kayin

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2011, 05:26:41 pm »

Yeah, no one has convinced me that glitching is 'cheating.

I can beat all the bosses (besides dracula) in Castlevania 1 with triple shot holy water with no effort. Is that cheating? It may or may not be an oversight. What about a bosses 'dead zone' where they can't hit you (cyclops in jap CV3)?

Is wall jumping the sequence break in Super Metroid a "glitch", or "cheating"? It seems obvious they'd know it was possible but you can create some glitchy situations (Plasma beam on Crocomire!) by doing so. What about Mockballing? Is it a glitch, or is avoiding the inertia dampening bounce just a natural part of the engine? Is it a glitch just because it allows you to further break sequence? Ocarina of Time 3ds's development team intentionally left in or in some cases went out of their way to preserve certain bugs, so is THAT cheating even though they were explicitly left due to them being beneficial? Is anything 'cheating' when it's hard to do and gives an appropriate reward or furthers the mechanics of the game? In n64 Ocarina of Time, Link's crouching sword attack has no defined attack damage. Due to this it does as much damage as the last attack you did, allowing you to do a big leap attack and then have every crouching stab do the same amount of cheating. Is that cheating? If it is, then what? do you never use Link's crouching slash? Do you only use it after a normal attack? Or is that stupid because now you have to GO OUT OF YOUR WAY to avoid doing a glitch? Is it cheating to use cancel combos in SF2, even if they were made a feature in SF2:CE? Was using them in SF2 retroactively not cheating when CE came out? If everyone is cheating (and no one even thought of it as cheating to begin with) can it really be considered cheating? What about Kara throws or Super Jump Cancel ultra in SF4 which are 'glitches' but are totally known about by the developers and are given and taken away from characters during balance efforts?

A game INTRINSICALLY has rules. A developer cannot forsee every consequence of those rules and it is impossible and pointless to try and figure out where "the line" should be. If I had to say something for IWBTG, I'd say 'anything in the game code is legit' and some developers might be mad that you play a game 'by the rules' but not in the way they predicted.

As for hacking, tilting and turbo controllers, it's easy to make a distinction. You are actively CHANGING the rules. Cartridge tilting is basically taking out sheets of the rule book. I'd still have a hard time considering that 'cheating' though as it doesn't give any advantage or anything generally, it just cases weird things to happen. You can make an argument for or against turbo controllers, but that's about it.
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Pennywise

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2011, 05:33:09 pm »

In my opinion, whether or not a glitch is a cheat should be determined by the developer. If they consider it a cheat, I don't think anyone would have the right to dispute, and often times, what are reffered to as glitches in speedruns are often times not so, they are usually just little quirks in the game that the developers overlooked that don't break any of the game's fundamental physics. For an example, if I were a developer and there was a glitch that rendered you character invincible like that in the gradius room, I would consider it a cheat, while if I were to see a harmless and humourous glitch, such as getting your character trapped in wall and thrown out onto the other side (assuming that this wouldn't signifigantly break the game) I wouldn't care. But honestly, I don't see how, in every sense but the official one, you cannot consider glitches like those in Super Mario 64 that allow you to complete the game with 16 stars(as opposed to the intended 70) cheating.
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