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Author Topic: Is Glitching a game Cheating?  (Read 15938 times)

Valkema

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2011, 07:40:44 pm »

Geez you are still on the 16 star run? Get with the times. Do a 1 star run. Or even better, a 0 star run.

anyway more on the subject of that being a cheat in SM64 you sorta just contradicted yourself because


(and actually I remember a thread quoting that Miyamoto himself said that glitches are like unintended features in the game.)

So um yeah.
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·Arturo·

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2011, 10:24:09 am »

The elder scrolls IV: Oblivion.

For the Xbox.

I don't even need to say more do I
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Pennywise

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2011, 10:26:51 am »

First of all, I don't play on an emulator, so to perform a 1 star or zero star run would take hours of commitment which are honestly better spent on something such as reading. The glitches performed for a one star or a zero star run a unscrupulously difficult to perform, while the glitches utilized to complete the 16 star run can be mastered in the span of twenty minutes, thus easily breaking the game.

Secondly, I am not contradicting myself. Maybe you should read my post a bit closer.
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playe

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2011, 12:48:52 pm »

Okay um I have a feeling I should actually quote the interview that I was referring to.

Quote from: Miyamoto
- The infinite turtle block 1up trick was included on purpose: "We did code the game so that a trick like that would be possible. We tested it out extensively to figure out how possible pulling the trick off should be and came up with how it is now, but people turned out to be a lot better at pulling the trick off for ages on end than we thought." What about the famed Minus World? "That's a bug, yes, but it's not like it crashes the game, so it's really kind of a feature, too!"

So according to Miyamoto if it doesn't crash the game, it's a feature.

Also pennywise in response to what you said here.

If they consider it a cheat, I don't think anyone would have the right to dispute, and often times, what are reffered to as glitches in speedruns are often times not so, they are usually just little quirks in the game that the developers overlooked that don't break any of the game's fundamental physics.

Uh those are all glitches and they do break the game extensively, I mean you cannot say that RBA in Ocarina of Time doesn't massively break it.

Also
honestly, I don't see how, in every sense but the official one, you cannot consider glitches like those in Super Mario 64 that allow you to complete the game with 16 stars(as opposed to the intended 70) cheating.
This is sort of a contradiction seeing as how Miyamoto sees any glitch that doesn't crash the game as a unintended "feature." (if you don't believe me the interview is right here.)

Also idk if I've said this already but what I believe to be cheating is using outside devices to cause the game to do things it normally doesn't (an example of what I'm referring to is a cheat device like Gameshark or Action Replay.) and seeing as glitches are programmed into the game (unintentionally mind you.) they aren't a form of cheating.

Oh and minor nit-pick.

the glitches utilized to complete the 16 star run can be mastered in the span of twenty minutes, thus easily breaking the game..
16 star runs can't be mastered in a span of 20 minutes (MIPS says hi.) AND BLJ's are real hard your first time around so...
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 12:51:49 pm by playe »
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Pennywise

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2011, 01:23:42 pm »

Okay um I have a feeling I should actually quote the interview that I was referring to.

Quote from: Miyamoto
- The infinite turtle block 1up trick was included on purpose: "We did code the game so that a trick like that would be possible. We tested it out extensively to figure out how possible pulling the trick off should be and came up with how it is now, but people turned out to be a lot better at pulling the trick off for ages on end than we thought." What about the famed Minus World? "That's a bug, yes, but it's not like it crashes the game, so it's really kind of a feature, too!"

So according to Miyamoto if it doesn't crash the game, it's a feature.

Also pennywise in response to what you said here.

If they consider it a cheat, I don't think anyone would have the right to dispute, and often times, what are reffered to as glitches in speedruns are often times not so, they are usually just little quirks in the game that the developers overlooked that don't break any of the game's fundamental physics.

Uh those are all glitches and they do break the game extensively, I mean you cannot say that RBA in Ocarina of Time doesn't massively break it.

Also
honestly, I don't see how, in every sense but the official one, you cannot consider glitches like those in Super Mario 64 that allow you to complete the game with 16 stars(as opposed to the intended 70) cheating.
This is sort of a contradiction seeing as how Miyamoto sees any glitch that doesn't crash the game as a unintended "feature." (if you don't believe me the interview is right here.)

Also idk if I've said this already but what I believe to be cheating is using outside devices to cause the game to do things it normally doesn't (an example of what I'm referring to is a cheat device like Gameshark or Action Replay.) and seeing as glitches are programmed into the game (unintentionally mind you.) they aren't a form of cheating.

Oh and minor nit-pick.

the glitches utilized to complete the 16 star run can be mastered in the span of twenty minutes, thus easily breaking the game..
16 star runs can't be mastered in a span of 20 minutes (MIPS says hi.) AND BLJ's are real hard your first time around so...

1.) He does not explicitly state that "if it doesn't crash the game, it's not a cheat." He was A.) saying that it was a feature, cheats(as in built in cheat codes) are features too, and B.) Talking about that one instance specifically. If the developers say, "no, the staircase glitch and the bunny glitch(that's not what it's called, I know, but I don't particularly feel like looking up the name) are not cheats" I would also not consider hem cheats, but, to my knowledge they have never commented on these particular glitches, and, due to them allowing you to skip most of the game combined with the ease which they can be performed( It took me five minutes to achieve the staircase glith, and another five to be able to do it whenever I want. The bunny glitch took me around twenty minutes to master, but considering that I am far from  being considered one of the best video gamers out there, I imagine that many other people could do it in less.), I doubt that they would acknowledge them to be legitimate techniques within the game.

2.) I am not sure how you interpreted my comment, and I probably worded it incorrectly, but when I say "dpes not break any of the games fundamental physics" I'm talking about the intended physics, not  oddities that arose from some bug within the physics. For an example, in OoT, Young Link is not meant to be able to descend into a pool of water to the bottom, but exploitations allow this. However, I don't see how walking on a rope, which is a surface, would qualify as a glitch. Maybe I should have left out the "often times."

You really should read things for how they are said, rather than developing obscure meanings out of things that cover only a certain spectrum of topics. Such is the thing that causes alot of the acedemic BS, especially in literature. I actually, as an extra credit project, wrote an essay for my teacher about how Dr. Seus's Green Eggs and Ham is really an allegory for a covert project conducted by a secret organization that is experimenting with radioactivity and kangaroos. I got an A.
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Kayin

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #50 on: July 15, 2011, 01:35:08 pm »

Who cares what the developers think? I don't even care if Miyamoto things POSITIVELY of glitches. It's nice, but it doesn't matter. The developers could think some things that are downright stupid. What if they consider something like the crouching slash cheating? How do you properly avoid it? Developers intent is crap and I will say this again and again and again. While I condone all abuses people use in my game, it really doesn't matter that I do. If it rubbed me the wrong way, my only recourse would be to release a new version with less bugs.

Also lets consider 'what is cheating'. Doing something underhanded to get an undeserved advantage. Or to "Violate rules", as a dictionary definition. Well I can throw the violation of rules out. Games have rules and those are the code. You might argue that "Well the game rules say you need X amount of stars to fight Bowser!" but that is not true. The game has barriers based on your star count, but they can be circumvented. You can pass "Go" without collecting 200 dollars. So lets go to the second definition and why this is different between single and multiplayer games. Doing something underhanded against who for an advantage against what? A machine? It doesn't care, it wants you to just hopefully have fun. Hell it doesn't even want that, it just wants to run calculations. So why do we care at all? We care because of merit. That's basically it. Either personal merit or knowing that someone didn't beat a hard game without cheating or whatever. We care only in that we assess each others skills and accomplishments.

... So when someone says they beat Super Mario 64 with 0(yes, that's the number) stars, I don't think very many people's first response is "CHEATER!". It's "HOLY SHIT HOW DID YOU DO THAT". We know doing this stuff is hard. We know the person has probably mastered the game in every other way already. He's not 'cheating', he's pushing his skill and the limits of the game and while some puritanical assholes might get uppity about it, the majority of us are just impressed. Same with Super Metroid or any other game with a rich community based on exploiting every nuance a game has. So no, in no way do I consider the Super Mario 64 glitches  "cheating". What is your goal? Is your goal to push the game to it's limits? Then there you go. If your goal is to get as good a time as possible with all 120 stars, will, then skipping a ton of stars would be 'cheating'. TSA's aren't cheating either. They are what they are, especially since TSAs are all upfront about what they are. They're only cheating if they're labeled as legitimate speed runs.

You can argue that a 0 star Super Mario 64 run is not a "real" completion of the game -- and you might have a case, but most people who are doign these kinds of glitches have ALREADY done "real" completions of the game and are now doing what they consider deeper, more interesting and challenging runs.

When you bring other players into this though, then they'll bitch about stuff like snaking which isn't even a glitch, but just bad testing on Nintendo's part. Because now one persons vision of a game conflicts with anothers and people really can get 'unfair advantages' over a being with any sort of worth (another human).

edit: Here's a quick metric on 'cheating' in a single player game. If there are no external changes to the game logic and people want to watch it on youtube without hilarious commentary, then person playing the game probably isn't cheating. He's probably really really good.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 01:47:37 pm by Kayin »
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Pennywise

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #51 on: July 15, 2011, 01:57:45 pm »

Who cares what the developers think? The developers could think some things that are downright stupid. What if they consider something like the crouching slash cheating? How do you properly avoid it? Developers intent is crap and I will say this again and again and again. While I condone all abuses people use in my game, it really doesn't matter that I do. If it rubbed me the wrong way, my only recourse would be to release a new version with less bugs.

Also lets consider 'what is cheating'. Doing something underhanded to get an undeserved advantage. Or to "Violate rules", as a dictionary definition. Well I can throw the violation of rules out. Games have rules and those are the code. You might argue that "Well the game rules say you need X amount of stars to fight Bowser!" but that is not true. The game has barriers based on your star count, but they can be circumvented. You can pass "Go" without collecting 200 dollars. So lets go to the second definition and why this is different between single and multiplayer games. Doing something underhanded against who for an advantage against what? A machine? It doesn't care, it wants you to just hopefully have fun. Hell it doesn't even want that, it just wants to run calculations. So why do we care at all? We care because of merit. That's basically it. Either personal merit or knowing that someone didn't beat a hard game without cheating or whatever. We care only in that we assess each others skills and accomplishments.

... So when someone says they beat Super Mario 64 with 0(yes, that's the number) stars, I don't think very many people's first response is "CHEATER!". It's "HOLY SHIT HOW DID YOU DO THAT". We know doing this stuff is hard. We know the person has probably mastered the game in every other way already. He's not 'cheating', he's pushing his skill and the limits of the game and while some puritanical assholes might get uppity about it, the majority of us are just impressed. Same with Super Metroid or any other game with a rich community based on exploiting every nuance a game has. So no, in no way do I consider the Super Mario 64 glitches  "cheating". What is your goal? Is your goal to push the game to it's limits? Then there you go. If your goal is to get as good a time as possible with all 120 stars, will, then skipping a ton of stars would be 'cheating'. TSA's aren't cheating either. They are what they are, especially since TSAs are all upfront about what they are. They're only cheating if they're labeled as legitimate speed runs.

You can argue that a 0 star Super Mario 64 run is not a "real" completion of the game -- and you might have a case, but most people who are doign these kinds of glitches have ALREADY done "real" completions of the game and are now doing what they consider deeper, more interesting and challenging runs.

I have taken all you have said into account, and while I honestly think, unless the developers were to state otherwise, that these particular glitches are cheating, I never stated my opinion on the ramifications of cheating. My philosophy has always been "the means by which an end is reached does not matter as long as the desired outcome is achieved", I have no problem with people using glitches to "cheat", because, as you said, they derive an enjoyment from the game by doing so. And while I roll my eyes at people who use action replays to beat a game( and in me doing this, it is likely that their desired end is not being achieved, seeing as for many people, one of the best parts about beating a game is being able to brag about how you beat it.), they can play that way if they want to. And another thing, we are speaking of the definition of cheating as a static thing, as opposed to a dynamic thing that should be applied on a case by case basis. Were we to refer the definition of cheating in a dynamic sense, I would not consider beating the game and then going back and exploiting glitches to be cheating, while doing so beforehand would. This particular comment seems contradictory I know, but people often forget that our universe is relative, in both a physical and psychological sense.

One more thing, I will say that I strongly disagree with the main point of your first paragraph. As a writer, I firmly believe that the only person(or persons) allowed to concretely determine the ramifications, meanings, and intent of a creative work(such as a book or a video game) is the intellectual property owner. This is not to say that these things are not open to speculation and interpretation, but if the creator states something about their work(and again, this is in reference to creative works. If this were applied to inventions,non-fiction, or the like, we enter into the realm of fascism) what they say goes.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 01:59:27 pm by Pennywise »
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Kayin

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #52 on: July 15, 2011, 02:29:25 pm »

I find it a silly, hair splitting point that two similar games could be released, but with one person in charge of one which is relaxed and another who is a rules monger and they can both make decrees on similar bugs in both their games and then it would beating to do it in one game but not the other. Could I say "Being Pennywise while playing IWBTG is cheating!" ...? If I'm playing a game and the creator is there and he sees me do something he doesn't like and says that doing that is cheating, you know what I do?

I tell him to go fuck himself and to play the game is damned self if he wants it played that way.

The thing with authorial intent and the concept of "The Death of the Author", is that while the intent of the author is both real and often interesting, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what the reader experiences and the reader's experience is far more salient than the authors intention. What if the author is just bad? Do I have to say Samus isn't a little bitch in Other M because that isn't authors intent? It is the author job to communicate all he has to communicate in his work, it isn't to write whatever and lecture everyone about it later. As a content creator my self I have some sympathies for the author, but once he or she releases something, their control is greatly diminished. Their opinion at that point is merely a point of interest. I personally love when authors share information about their worlds and information that isn't in any book or show, but that does not change the very real experience someone has when they read a book while being unaware of any of that.

Now in games, authorial intent is even more bogus because we are active authors in the game world. The game creators give us an outline -- the cliff notes -- for the game. My Samus is a fast, aggressive, acrobatic and somewhat reckless killing machine compared to someone elses slower, methodical Samus. My Samus never fought Spore Spawn and on any given run may or may not have fought Crocomir. My Samus is not familiar with the grappling beam or X-Ray scope. I am a co-author in the story. Of course when sequels come out they can make some canonical facts about what happened, but my will as a player is still being expressed in the game worlds I play in. The authors are dead (in Metroid's case, literally :(  ) because we proceed on with out them quite easily and have a great time. We only care about the judgement, praise and scorn of our peers.

Your point on the relativity cheating is not without merit (though they'd only be cheating themselves an experience), it all seems fuzzy and pointless. Perhaps it's because I'm a competitive gamer and when there are rules that are agreed on, -they are rules-. I have never had room for squishy or grey rules and most times when people say 'this ought to be banned' it most often ought not to be banned.

But if this is your internal definition, there is nothing to argue about. It just sounds..... really... really silly.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 02:32:10 pm by Kayin »
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Pennywise

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #53 on: July 15, 2011, 03:12:56 pm »

I find it a silly, hair splitting point that two similar games could be released, but with one person in charge of one which is relaxed and another who is a rules monger and they can both make decrees on similar bugs in both their games and then it would beating to do it in one game but not the other. Could I say "Being Pennywise while playing IWBTG is cheating!" ...? If I'm playing a game and the creator is there and he sees me do something he doesn't like and says that doing that is cheating, you know what I do?

I tell him to go fuck himself and to play the game is damned self if he wants it played that way.

The thing with authorial intent and the concept of "The Death of the Author", is that while the intent of the author is both real and often interesting, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what the reader experiences and the reader's experience is far more salient than the authors intention. What if the author is just bad? Do I have to say Samus isn't a little bitch in Other M because that isn't authors intent? It is the author job to communicate all he has to communicate in his work, it isn't to write whatever and lecture everyone about it later. As a content creator my self I have some sympathies for the author, but once he or she releases something, their control is greatly diminished. Their opinion at that point is merely a point of interest. I personally love when authors share information about their worlds and information that isn't in any book or show, but that does not change the very real experience someone has when they read a book while being unaware of any of that.

Now in games, authorial intent is even more bogus because we are active authors in the game world. The game creators give us an outline -- the cliff notes -- for the game. My Samus is a fast, aggressive, acrobatic and somewhat reckless killing machine compared to someone elses slower, methodical Samus. My Samus never fought Spore Spawn and on any given run may or may not have fought Crocomir. My Samus is not familiar with the grappling beam or X-Ray scope. I am a co-author in the story. Of course when sequels come out they can make some canonical facts about what happened, but my will as a player is still being expressed in the game worlds I play in. The authors are dead (in Metroid's case, literally :(  ) because we proceed on with out them quite easily and have a great time. We only care about the judgement, praise and scorn of our peers.

Your point on the relativity cheating is not without merit (though they'd only be cheating themselves an experience), it all seems fuzzy and pointless. Perhaps it's because I'm a competitive gamer and when there are rules that are agreed on, -they are rules-. I have never had room for squishy or grey rules and most times when people say 'this ought to be banned' it most often ought not to be banned.

But if this is your internal definition, there is nothing to argue about. It just sounds..... really... really silly.

Well, of course if there are established rules of "you should not do this..." the person would should not do something, but often times, that is within the competitive community, and if somone is just an ameturish idiot who action replays their way through the game and doesn't bother to actually do it right, they can do that. I don't condone it, and when playing by a certain mindset(like the competitive mindset)  these actions are not acceptable, but if they like it that way, fine. I think they're an idiot for it, and that it would be better if they didn't play the game at all, but he enjoyed it, and the publisher(hopefully) got their money, so oh well.

I guess I didn't define my idea properly. I think that anything that has been programmed into the game and meant to be a part of the game cannot be later considered "cheating"; like you said, if the don't like something about it, recall what products are available for recall release a different version. But with glitches, developers did not intend for them to be in the game, so I think that their classification then it would be up to their discretion. And of ccourse, different communities are going to have different definitions of cheating. While I think that the idiot community that condone s the use of a action replays and such is tumorous and should be stamped out, due to the nature of our society, if comptitive communities can exist, these other ones can do so also.

Also while I do believe that "The death of the author" has it's merits, it would violate what I was trying to convey in a story and what my intentions would be if people started accusing the story of being an allegory/progandist work for some absurd conspiracy or that the protagonist of a certain storie's sexual preferance means is a reflection of my own and all the other bullshit that people will come up with. I'm all for speculation, and while I hate fanfiction(I believe it is a violation, and in many cases corruption, of an author's property) I love hearing people's different opinions of a story and various speculations. And in terms of your example from Other M, saying that Samus is a bitch isn't a false meaning or an absolute claim, it's an interpretaion and a critisism, which is perfectly viable.

And, taking into account the video game as a medium for a story, what you say about metroid is something I agree with, I'm refferring to the mechanics of a game. One of the reasons I love games is that I can make up narratives, explanantions, and original dialouge in my head as I play a game, though that usually comes after I beat it.


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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #54 on: August 05, 2011, 05:50:54 am »

I remember when I was younger, I would find tons of glitches in Ocarina of Time. When I tried to show my brother and sister they would go "Shut the fuck up. They would've been removed if they were glitches. They're on purpose."
I cried a lot when I was a child.
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playe

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2011, 02:16:57 pm »

I remember when I was younger, I would find tons of glitches in Ocarina of Time. When I tried to show my brother and sister they would go "Shut the fuck up. They would've been removed if they were glitches. They're on purpose."
I cried a lot when I was a child.
pfft lol sorry but that's probably the funniest view on glitches I've ever seen in my life.

I'd like to see what they would think about ISG or shadow early or even Superslide.
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LOLGAMMER

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Re: Is Glitching a game Cheating?
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2016, 06:51:51 am »

FUCK
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