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Author Topic: Neo-feminism, equality, sexism, humanism.  (Read 3976 times)

Cantavanda

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Re: Neo-feminism, equality, sexism, humanism.
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2014, 01:40:38 pm »

No, I don't want to prove anything, I completely agree with everything.
Just because I show a stupid example, does that mean I'm generalising the website? No.
I just found it funny and wanted to show it.
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Silver

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Re: Neo-feminism, equality, sexism, humanism.
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2014, 01:59:44 pm »

I'd like to applaud this thread being taken somewhat seriously even if I also feel Cantavanda's views are far off the mark. I also want to note that men should focus on women's issues too, referencing the OP. Cantavanda, you actually inadvertently put the reason why in your post. When men are being stereotyped and marginalized the result is that they seem like creeps or get punched where women don't, in some fringe cases. When women are being stereotyped and marginalized they are getting raped.

One of these is a bigger issue to fix than the other. Equality across the board is good and should be striven for but there should be little issue with slowing down men's equality for women's when the consequences for inequality are so drastically different.
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Cantavanda

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Re: Neo-feminism, equality, sexism, humanism.
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2014, 02:01:05 pm »

I'm still a kid, I have a lot to learn.
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Silver

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Re: Neo-feminism, equality, sexism, humanism.
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2014, 02:04:04 pm »

I'm still a kid, I have a lot to learn.

That's fine. Again, I applaud you for making this thread. Even if we think your views are off I would WAY prefer this than the spamming up of other threads as has been your pattern.
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Venser

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Re: Neo-feminism, equality, sexism, humanism.
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2014, 02:14:19 pm »

When men are being stereotyped and marginalized the result is that they seem like creeps or get punched where women don't, in some fringe cases. When women are being stereotyped and marginalized they are getting raped.
It's worth pointing out that this argument is actually the same as Cantavanda's argument - point out a small section of some group performing some action and then assign blame because of that. This is a very poor argument, and while you may be correct to some extent this is not the way to argue it.

There is no organized campaign to rape women that are extreme feminists or otherwise, and pretending that a few cases of such acts happening is indicative of anything is really just nonsensical. Sure, it might - might - have some social implications, but this would be like claiming that a few isolated murders of college students over several years indicates that it is socially acceptable to murder college students.
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Evan20000

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Re: Neo-feminism, equality, sexism, humanism.
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2014, 02:18:54 pm »

One of these is a bigger issue to fix than the other. Equality across the board is good and should be striven for but there should be little issue with slowing down men's equality for women's when the consequences for inequality are so drastically different.
While I agree with your overall view, I don't think this is accurate at all. Because of the huge social stigma against men being raped or reporting it "It's not possible for a man to be raped / If he enjoyed it it's not raped / etc...", it's fair to reason that there's a large amount of unreported cases of men being raped or abused. I think slowing down equality for one side is inherently inequitable by definition. On a tangent, my biggest problem with a lot of activists on both sides is the "us vs them" mentality. Wanting equality is perfectly okay, but I feel like lately this has turned into an arms race of sorts.

I'll also leave my rant on tumblr's special snowflakes elsewhere because that isn't so much related to feminism but self-entitlement disguised as something it's not.

Ninja'd by Venser. He said it better than I could.
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Rarest Pepe

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Re: Neo-feminism, equality, sexism, humanism.
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2014, 02:30:00 pm »



Oh look what I just found. You can guess the site.

So, men have opinions, and all men are scum by existing.

I bet these same women say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Edit: I meant to say

So all men have opinions that you and the rest of Tumblr don't agree with, so it must be wrong
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 02:33:06 pm by IGN »
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Silver

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Re: Neo-feminism, equality, sexism, humanism.
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2014, 02:44:52 pm »

When men are being stereotyped and marginalized the result is that they seem like creeps or get punched where women don't, in some fringe cases. When women are being stereotyped and marginalized they are getting raped.
It's worth pointing out that this argument is actually the same as Cantavanda's argument - point out a small section of some group performing some action and then assign blame because of that. This is a very poor argument, and while you may be correct to some extent this is not the way to argue it.

There is no organized campaign to rape women that are extreme feminists or otherwise, and pretending that a few cases of such acts happening is indicative of anything is really just nonsensical. Sure, it might - might - have some social implications, but this would be like claiming that a few isolated murders of college students over several years indicates that it is socially acceptable to murder college students.

The societal acceptance of viewing women as objects leads not only to rape but the encouragement of several psychological disorders and implications as well:

http://www.apa.org/education/ce/sexual-objectification.pdf

The "organized campaign" is the institutional sexism in this country and is found throughout the world. I think it is unfair to state that it's a small section of people when the objectification is institutional in nature. I'm not saying anything about individuals; I'm saying a result of objectification of women is rape. Quite a large amount of it in fact.

One of these is a bigger issue to fix than the other. Equality across the board is good and should be striven for but there should be little issue with slowing down men's equality for women's when the consequences for inequality are so drastically different.
While I agree with your overall view, I don't think this is accurate at all. Because of the huge social stigma against men being raped or reporting it "It's not possible for a man to be raped / If he enjoyed it it's not raped / etc...", it's fair to reason that there's a large amount of unreported cases of men being raped or abused. I think slowing down equality for one side is inherently inequitable by definition. On a tangent, my biggest problem with a lot of activists on both sides is the "us vs them" mentality. Wanting equality is perfectly okay, but I feel like lately this has turned into an arms race of sorts.

I'll also leave my rant on tumblr's special snowflakes elsewhere because that isn't so much related to feminism but self-entitlement disguised as something it's not.

Ninja'd by Venser. He said it better than I could.

If it's assumed that there are unreported cases on the male side shouldn't it also be assumed that there are unreported cases on the female side? It's kind of difficult to determine which has more unreported cases. We can't fix a problem we cannot see; we can only address things with the information that we have.

There's no need for an "us vs. them" type of thing. I'd like to work together to limit rape. Then limit unfair court rulings, such as children usually going to women. Things that have more practical consequence. Then limit unfair perceptions. Things that have consequence that mauy be construed as less material.

I don't view this as a thing we can sort of just fix in one fell swoop. I personally would like to focus on specific issues and work our way down in terms of severity. The biggest one, in my personal viewpoint admittedly, being rape, and the huge difference between men and women reported:
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 02:51:51 pm by Silver »
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Neko Desu

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Re: Neo-feminism, equality, sexism, humanism.
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2014, 03:41:55 pm »

Working down in terms of severity can have negative effects. If the person with the less severe problem needs help (or is campaigning for its solution) and is treated with the attitude that their problem is less important than some other, more severe issue, they will feel marginalized.
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Venser

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Re: Neo-feminism, equality, sexism, humanism.
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2014, 03:51:40 pm »

I'm not saying anything about individuals; I'm saying a result of objectification of women is rape. Quite a large amount of it in fact.

This is a very different argument than what you originally presented; i.e. here you are saying that your definition of "rape" has very little basis on the actual definition of the word. While I've heard it before, it has always surprised me that no one brings up how obvious the issues with it are. If you want to put a name to "effects of objectification on women," this isn't the way to do it: this is sensationalization, pure and simple. Want to make something sound worse? Just associate it with awful things like rape and murder! A classic tactic employed by propaganda and advertisement. And yet I've rarely seen it recognized that equating "objectification of women" with "rape" is just sensationalist.

Sure, they're both negative, but you don't call the objectification of children child abuse, now do you? It's a gross misrepresentation.

Either way, there are certainly gender-related social problems in our society; there are plenty of facts out there to prove that. The easiest one is that women, on average, make less than men working the same jobs. But this whole "objectification of women" thing is really blown way out of proportion and not the way to argue for feminism (and is a large part of why there is such a negative backlash against feminism). Pretending that some minor changes in social graces would fix the underlying problems is naive and rather grating when those same types of problems exist against many, if not all, social groups (including men!).

Also, on a somewhat unrelated note, Silver, your article says basically nothing. It is not a study, nor a legitimate piece of scientific documentation. It is basically a journal. Unless I missed something, all it does is cite other articles and make unfounded claims. While what it says may potentially be true, it has zero evidence to back up its claims (and I do not believe such evidence exists, unless someone has been sitting on very big research that I missed somehow).

Working down in terms of severity can have negative effects. If the person with the less severe problem needs help (or is campaigning for its solution) and is treated with the attitude that their problem is less important than some other, more severe issue, they will feel marginalized.

This has nothing to do with anything here, and is one of the most useless pieces of general rhetoric that I have ever read.
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Silver

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Re: Neo-feminism, equality, sexism, humanism.
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2014, 11:00:30 pm »

I'm not saying anything about individuals; I'm saying a result of objectification of women is rape. Quite a large amount of it in fact.

This is a very different argument than what you originally presented; i.e. here you are saying that your definition of "rape" has very little basis on the actual definition of the word. While I've heard it before, it has always surprised me that no one brings up how obvious the issues with it are. If you want to put a name to "effects of objectification on women," this isn't the way to do it: this is sensationalization, pure and simple. Want to make something sound worse? Just associate it with awful things like rape and murder! A classic tactic employed by propaganda and advertisement. And yet I've rarely seen it recognized that equating "objectification of women" with "rape" is just sensationalist.

Sure, they're both negative, but you don't call the objectification of children child abuse, now do you? It's a gross misrepresentation.

Either way, there are certainly gender-related social problems in our society; there are plenty of facts out there to prove that. The easiest one is that women, on average, make less than men working the same jobs. But this whole "objectification of women" thing is really blown way out of proportion and not the way to argue for feminism (and is a large part of why there is such a negative backlash against feminism). Pretending that some minor changes in social graces would fix the underlying problems is naive and rather grating when those same types of problems exist against many, if not all, social groups (including men!).

Also, on a somewhat unrelated note, Silver, your article says basically nothing. It is not a study, nor a legitimate piece of scientific documentation. It is basically a journal. Unless I missed something, all it does is cite other articles and make unfounded claims. While what it says may potentially be true, it has zero evidence to back up its claims (and I do not believe such evidence exists, unless someone has been sitting on very big research that I missed somehow).

Working down in terms of severity can have negative effects. If the person with the less severe problem needs help (or is campaigning for its solution) and is treated with the attitude that their problem is less important than some other, more severe issue, they will feel marginalized.

This has nothing to do with anything here, and is one of the most useless pieces of general rhetoric that I have ever read.

Relating to the difference in the argument I presented, I feel the claim that it IS different is simply untrue. My argument, I feel, has been conveyed as follows: Rape, the literal, usual definition, is one of the outcomes that objectification of women contributes to, which is done systemically throughout our society and globally. This is not sensationalized; it is an actual, empirical result.

Further, the attempt to address the objectification of women is not meant to take away from legislative action to ensure equality. I am all for doing both and don't see why one has to fall by the wayside while the other is worked on since they work together. If you only work on one you have problems dealing with resentment, as has been the case with laws attempting to fix racial inequality. Laws are good, but the mindset change is needed too.

The article was meant to elucidate on the subject of Sexual Objectification Theory. I apologize for misleading you into thinking that it was direct proof; it cites other articles pertaining to the idea of research into it but you are correct in saying that in itself it does nothing. I did not mean to mislead in that manner, I meant to clarify my position because I worried that I was not clear.

Mark's remarks relates to something I said further down and I would agree with his analysis. I just sort of think that helping prevent rape IS a more severe problem than most other things sans murder. We have laws in action to help prevent rape but a mindset shift can help.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 11:02:20 pm by Silver »
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Yule

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Re: Neo-feminism, equality, sexism, humanism.
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2014, 03:10:20 am »

I don't really understand what the point of this discussion is or the direction people want this to go. What exactly is a mindset? How would that be fixed? What exactly is the thing that needs to be fixed? I'm not seeing anything here. Are we just talking about how it is bad? What is the system that enables rape? What is enabling rape? Why are those things enabling rape? What is the evidence that those things are enabling? How does society enable rape? Why do these things get blamed? What is it about those things that enable? Why is the focus on the enabling mechanic instead of the person's choices? Why is the conclusion of those elements rape? Are we only talking about American society or the world? How do you apply whatever this fix is to the rest of the world? How do you stop people from believe in different societal norms? Who thinks rape is okay? Where are those people and where do they live? Where is rape legal? How do you get people to report rape more often? What about in less developed countries? Again, are we just talking about America? How do you stop soldiers raping like in Burma?

Just a stream of questions I figured I'd write down. Blah
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