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Author Topic: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*  (Read 26194 times)

Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #120 on: August 26, 2015, 07:36:47 am »

I feel as though your vision of the best game winning is something that's very difficult to achieve/guarantee; we can only do our best to better the process (not least because how do you actually quantify the 'best' game? When your main argument is that each genre has nuances people outside of them can't understand, how can we achieve any sort of objective result?). I agree with you that the structure of the competition needs improving but the simple fact is that subcategories on their own, in my mind, are not the way to go: you've admitted they spread the judging too thin, and not just that, the fact you openly admitted smaller categories will mean games don't have to be to as good a standard of games in larger categories means that inherently this method is also flawed.

While it's true I view the components of a fangame as art (sprites, music, gameplay, story if any) please don't think this means I believe they shouldn't be viewed and judged analytically, because I do. My main problem with your argument is that yes, I do believe that everyone's opinion is equal. I take your point that more credible judges raises the legitimacy of the contest and the results, however in my mind this just risks the competition becoming misrepresentative of the community as a whole and in turn makes the process exclusive therefore creating a "big boys club" situation where those less known in the community are unable to participate in any meaningful way. I think it's refreshing that YoSniper's contest embraces community and allows anyone and everyone to make their voice heard; this is for me one of the main draws of the competition and I know that personally I would not participate if it became a more exclusive process. I agree we don't really know who some of the judges are, but that's good in my mind: it stops people just entering because the judges are their friends.

Another issue I have is exactly how we're supposed to differentiate qualified from unqualified in terms of judging. Is it simply who has the most twitch subscribers? Who talks the loudest in the community? People who've been there the longest? People who've made popular games in those genres? Because I really feel as though none of those are accurate indicators of whether or not someone is qualified. I appreciate your comparison to the Carnegie International, but there exist no analogues in the fangaming world of the accolades seen to denote worthiness to judge in that competition (from my understanding there are no hard and fast rules, but nonetheless I don't see how curator for example translates into the fangaming context). The Carnegie International is representative of the art of the world, this contest is representative of the games of a much smaller community and it only makes sense for me when the scope has been reduced so far down to let anyone participate. I just don't believe you can treat the two as one in the same.*

Allowing anyone to judge is exactly what stops this contest from becoming biased, because then the people (and more importantly prospective contestants) don't get to cherrypick a team of judges themselves. I am in no way insinuating that this is some conspiracy to cheat, but you have to see that the risks are there of people just putting forward people who are their friends/know will vote for them. This for me is a bigger issue than games like Draw My Guy getting as far as it has, because, save for that game in my opinion, it's clear that judging has still been effective - you cannot deny that the games ousted first were definitely the worst, and those that are left are among the best. Sure there may be personal discrepancies between your view and the results themselves, but this method definitely is working and I think that this avenue of judging is better than raising the exclusivity of the panel. If Draw My Guy wins, I concede, but I honestly think it's an anomaly and that the best game, whatever it is, will prevail.

I understand your argument about "If you know nothing about a person, it's difficult to assess [...] if much thought went into it all [their decision]." but I disagree simply because this is not the type of thing YoSniper would allow. He's been very transparent about making sure that judges write detailed responses explaining their votes and also about ensuring judges don't vote down games for arbitrary reasons like a game being too short when they're all meant to be alphas etc. I think in your argument you assume too frequently that since anyone was allowed to participate in judging that therefore there is no quality control done behind the scenes by YoSniper when there most certainly is. I agree that it's impossible to know an unknown figures bias compared to that of someone who is a community figure, however I maintain that the biggest risk for bias lies in choosing who can and can't judge because this allows for bias on both sides, not just the judge's side.

I do certainly agree however that the rules should be removed (with the exception of God mode). I know people who are almost certainly removing the misogamy/game references in the next build of their game, and they do almost certainly turn people away, like straight needle makers. They can force people to add things that detract from the game itself, like a poorly conceived gimmick in a game that would have been better without it. Honestly if a game without gimmicks is strong enough to win, then more power to the creator.



While I think there are better ways to improve the competition, I do see viable compromises between our two ideals:

Route one would be to simply combine our proposals. Games are submitted with tags verifying which genre the creator wishes to enter them for. There is then a process where they are open to the public, the tags allowing people to ignore games in genres they don't enjoy, and this creates a shortlisting process whereby the top 5 games in each category (assuming your unverified claims that the number of participants will increase is true) are then put forward to a team of 'qualified 'judges (we'll have to work out a universally accepted method of identifying what qualities someone must posses to earn this title though) who can vote for 6 games (1 extra vote to ensure that even if a game they liked wasn't shortlisted it can still get the praise it deserves).

Route two, which is a tad more radical, is something akin to what the Sonic fangaming community does. I'm unsure if they still do this, but when I was around in 2012~ there was an annual event called SAGE (Sega Amatuer Games Expo) which functioned sort of like a cross between the Oscars and an art festival. There was a schedule of events, like awards announcements, game dev streams, interviews with people etc. The more pertinent part to us was how games were handled. They were submitted then given awards for various categories (best art, best music, best traditional sonic game, best modern sonic game, best mini game, etc). We could just do multiple small contests for different genres and then overall categories for best art, music and ultimately game. This would have the downside of meaning that there would likely be miniscule prizes/only a prize for best game but I'm not sure this is a massive deal. Where this differs from your proposal mostly is that I feel like this should still very much be a public/self-nominated voting deal. On the flipside if it goes far enough to turn into an annual event of sorts we could do charity streaming events, sponsored races, etc which might be a nice way to raise the profile of the community and simultaneously bring it together. But I understand there are separate events in which these things also occur, not to mention this is YoSniper's contest and changing this radically may be too much of an overstep/dramatic move.



As I said earlier in the thread, I am very interested in helping out next year (I even offered to run it if YoSniper didn't want to, but I get the impression he feels more positive about doing it now). That said I don't want to be too overzealous, but this is a good discussion we're having here, and I hope it continues. If the scale of the project increases there could even be a small focus group dedicated to working out how to take this contest in a better direction (even though I do think it works well as is).







*Unrelated note: The library in my town was funded by Andrew Carnegie. Not especially noteworthy considering he facilitated the creation of many English libraries, but still nice nonetheless.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 07:43:43 am by pornographer »
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Kyir

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #121 on: August 26, 2015, 07:57:53 am »

I'm not running on enough sleep to give your entire post a detailed response, but I think your point about keeping the judge pool from becoming insular is a valid one. Personally, I would be satisfied if a person had made a game, gave thoughtful reviews in their threads/Delicious Fruit, streamed games regularly, or pretty much any public indication that they played games often. I don't think judges need to be grilled on their fangame chops like it's an interrogation room, but I think that judging should be slightly more restricted than just posting that they want to judge (for the same reasons I said before).

That's more what I meant when I suggested that it's hard to weigh the judgments of relatively private people. If someone says a game is too hard, that's a fair stance for them to take, but as a viewer of the competition I would very much like to know what they would consider easy in comparison. If someone's running K3 every day or something and they say that a game was too difficult, that's much clearer for me than if someone I have no knowledge of says it.

At the very least, I would like to see judges introduce themselves and their fangame history as part of the proceedings in the future.

« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 08:06:54 am by Kyir »
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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #122 on: August 26, 2015, 08:04:38 am »

I agree with all of what you just said. As long as the conditions aren't too limiting or exclusive, which the ones you suggested aren't, I'm happy with it.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 08:08:25 am by pornographer »
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Klaty

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #123 on: August 26, 2015, 08:58:23 am »

I have to agree that you don't necessarily need to be good at a game to like/love it. I like Touhou in some fashion, but I can't get very far even on the so called easiest official Touhou game, Imperishable Night, on Easy mode. Then I'm really sad because of so. :-\ (and don't feed me that "practice makes perfect" crap)

But yeah, I wonder what qualifies as a fangame. Would it depend on perspective, or would there actually be a "limited definition"? I doubt it'd be physics & gimmicks, because there're many Mario fangames that are very different from the official games but are still easily qualified as fangames. I know that a cameo and/or a reference doesn't make the whole game revolve around it...
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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #124 on: August 26, 2015, 09:51:25 am »

I know it's vague but I think "anything within reason" is the acceptable answer. My response in this thread more or less shows my opinion on the matter.
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Klaty

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #125 on: August 26, 2015, 12:41:59 pm »

Alright, perspective. IWBTG isn't the first game to have trollish/hard platforming, after all.
I'm glad you didn't make a comment that was 3x the height of your avatar.
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YoSniper

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #126 on: August 26, 2015, 05:08:17 pm »

Just to chime in on this discussion:

I do plan to change up the scoring system next year, but I don't think the pool of competition is nearly large enough to warrant subcategories.

I admit that I am personally biased against "needle" games, bullet hell bosses, and games that spam cliche gimmicks like double jump restores throughout. However, I try to keep an open mind about the other aspects of the game, and I realize that I am not always the target audience (case in point: I Wanna Walk on Sunshine.)

I try to compensate for my bias by having a wide panel of judges with a wide variety of opinions. I invited Klaty to judge, for example, because last year he had a lot to say, and he often strongly disagreed with me (but respectfully.) During the 4.5 months that this contest was open, people could chime in if they wanted to judge. The only restriction was that someone who submitted a game would not be allowed to judge, because that would create a conflict of interest. In this manner, I felt that I get a good representation of the community, without having to manage a hundred different people's opinions.

Remember that in addition to running this contest, I work full time. That's why it's taken me so long to get the results videos out. I was lucky this year, in that all of my judges voted in a timely manner, and most of them gave detailed opinions about each game. But opening the judging to the entire forum I feel would result in a clusterfuck of arguments, troll opinions, and thread derails.

Ultimately, the goal of my contests is to push developers to create more fangames with more originality, and not just more cookie-cutter spike jump games. (Off topic, that's another reason why I dislike needle games: they pretty much all look and play alike to me.) And I am willing to take time out of my busy schedule, and put my own money on the line, to make this happen.

If you don't like the way I go about doing this, I welcome you to host your own competition.
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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #127 on: August 26, 2015, 05:39:32 pm »

And I am willing to take time out of my busy schedule, and put my own money on the line, to make this happen.

If you don't like the way I go about doing this, I welcome you to host your own competition.
And I'm appreciative of both of those sacrifices you make. But no one here is insinuating they want to create a rival competition; personally I was just trying to spitball ways to get participation up, I don't want to speak for Kyir but it seems like that's all he was doing as well. You said to me a while back you probably weren't going to do another one, a sentiment it luckily appears you've rescinded; the point I was making was that if you decided not to, or if you needed help due to constraints like the fact you work full time, I would be willing to help in any capacity possible to ensure this competition stays alive and thrives. So apologies if you feel I was being overzealous, I just am quite passionate about this competition as I view it as an inherently positive force in the fangaming community.
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YoSniper

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #128 on: August 26, 2015, 06:14:52 pm »

And I am willing to take time out of my busy schedule, and put my own money on the line, to make this happen.

If you don't like the way I go about doing this, I welcome you to host your own competition.
And I'm appreciative of both of those sacrifices you make. But no one here is insinuating they want to create a rival competition; personally I was just trying to spitball ways to get participation up, I don't want to speak for Kyir but it seems like that's all he was doing as well. You said to me a while back you probably weren't going to do another one, a sentiment it luckily appears you've rescinded; the point I was making was that if you decided not to, or if you needed help due to constraints like the fact you work full time, I would be willing to help in any capacity possible to ensure this competition stays alive and thrives. So apologies if you feel I was being overzealous, I just am quite passionate about this competition as I view it as an inherently positive force in the fangaming community.

I go back and forth on whether I want to host another contest. I was worried for a while because I wasn't seeing a lot of entries, and the anxiety was getting to me. And then I got a flood of entries at the eleventh hour.

I mean, I will be open to suggestions about changes to make for next year, like the time frame. It was also suggested that for future contests, I have "door prizes" in addition to the first place money prize, which I'm certainly open to. If people know that they don't necessarily have to beat veterans like klazen and pieceofcheese in order to win something, that might increase participation as well.

Obviously, it's far too early to set things in stone, but I am still trying to find the right time for this.

Thanks!
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YoSniper

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #129 on: August 29, 2015, 01:29:52 am »

Part 4 is up!

Note that I'll need at least another week to finish up the final video. I thank you all for your continued patience.

EDIT: Also, the users at the Fangame Community might need to be notified. The site appears to be down at the moment.

I'm going to bed...
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 01:31:53 am by YoSniper »
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YoSniper

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #130 on: September 05, 2015, 10:02:37 pm »

Final results video is up!

I'll follow through with giving out the prize tomorrow. Hope you all had fun!
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Cantavanda

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #131 on: September 30, 2015, 11:36:10 am »

It looks great! DERF did amazing, and the first place looks amazing too!
So, are you going to make a 2016 one? Since the legendary must shine!
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YoSniper

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #132 on: September 30, 2015, 04:34:04 pm »

It looks great! DERF did amazing, and the first place looks amazing too!
So, are you going to make a 2016 one? Since the legendary must shine!
As I've said before, we won't know for sure until the day comes. But chances are that a 2016 contest will take place.
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Twitter: @YoSniperGames
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Streams happen whenever I feel like it.
Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #133 on: September 30, 2015, 08:57:45 pm »

It looks great! DERF did amazing, and the first place looks amazing too!
So, are you going to make a 2016 one? Since the legendary must shine!
*Derf & Katz, but thanks honey :~)
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