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Author Topic: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*  (Read 28787 times)

YoSniper

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #105 on: August 16, 2015, 09:11:21 am »

Thank you for your four honourable mentions ;-)
We will heed your suggestions! I Wanna Kill The Mom 2 won't have such a massive early access programm than its predecessor had.
The game will be sent to beta testers and we will only release maybe 2 or 3 public pre-release (beta) versions, which is has the advantage that we can more and better care about your reported bugs or suggestions.

If you want to be a beta-tester just contact us.
If you want to stay tuned just follow our pyoko-thread and youtube channel.
It was a VAST improvement over I Wanna Kill The Mom 1. Thank you for participating!
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ValDenStudios

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #106 on: August 16, 2015, 10:39:23 am »

It was a VAST improvement over I Wanna Kill The Mom 1. Thank you for participating!
Well I think the game's end isn't that shitty. However the game reached its goal :Do everything a good fangame shouldn't do. :D
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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #107 on: August 16, 2015, 10:53:03 am »

It was a VAST improvement over I Wanna Kill The Mom 1. Thank you for participating!
Well I think the game's end isn't that shitty. However the game reached its goal :Do everything a good fangame shouldn't do. :D
I personally think you waive the right to use the cop-out of "but it wasn't even meant to be good" when there appears any semblance of effort in your game. Own your mediocrity and use it to fuel yourself towards creating a better game in the future; which the higher points of uneven quality in your game prove you have the ability of doing.
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Jmab

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #108 on: August 16, 2015, 03:09:57 pm »

Thank you for your four honourable mentions ;-)
We will heed your suggestions! I Wanna Kill The Mom 2 won't have such a massive early access programm than its predecessor had.
The game will be sent to beta testers and we will only release maybe 2 or 3 public pre-release (beta) versions, which is has the advantage that we can more and better care about your reported bugs or suggestions.

If you want to be a beta-tester just contact us.
If you want to stay tuned just follow our pyoko-thread and youtube channel.

Your game was really short but you are surely following the right path. The platforming and visuals of the stage were great and overall it seems like a good promise for a future game so keep it up (y)
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YoSniper

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #109 on: August 24, 2015, 08:16:17 pm »

Part 3 is up, finally. Sorry it's taking me so long to get to these. I swear I'm moving as fast as I can.
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MetaKK

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #110 on: August 24, 2015, 11:43:58 pm »

I can't wait to see what the judges' comments on Draw My Guy will be (or are, rather). It obviously made it quite far with its interesting concept, but that's just it. It didn't seem to have much else going for it in terms of level design and yet it made it least into the semi-finals, maybe even the finals.

Also PSIFT will take first, calling it now.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 11:47:20 pm by MetaKK »
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Katz

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #111 on: August 24, 2015, 11:57:18 pm »

Nevertheless it's been a pleasure being in this contest, even if we don't place as finalists.
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Klaty

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #112 on: August 24, 2015, 11:59:12 pm »

I honestly didn't expect Draw My Guy to get so high, I mean maybe in the Honorables. The tutorial kind of ruined it, and the gimmick was very limited. It's just hard for me to overcome that, even with proper World 1.

Oh, I think you'll be surprized... ;P
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LOLGAMMER

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #113 on: August 25, 2015, 04:45:13 am »

Uh.. What does PSIFT stand for?
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MetaKK

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #114 on: August 25, 2015, 05:34:52 am »

Uh.. What does PSIFT stand for?
Post-Structural Ironic Fangame Title. It's Derf and Katz' entry.
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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #115 on: August 25, 2015, 01:45:58 pm »

I can't wait to see what the judges' comments on Draw My Guy will be (or are, rather). It obviously made it quite far with its interesting concept, but that's just it. It didn't seem to have much else going for it in terms of level design and yet it made it least into the semi-finals, maybe even the finals.

Also PSIFT will take first, calling it now.
Yeah. I don't want to seem like a bad sportsman, but it does baffle me how it's done so well with such little substance. The gimmick is cute but criminally wasted: there's plenty of GM functionality for checking colour & shape in sprites so there could have been elemental obstacles and weapons which do more damage to different enemies, you could have had to redraw traps in certain ways to make them easier or more progressable (e.g. there's a pit of lava and you redraw it in blue, the game checks this, and turns the objects into a non-lethal lake instead), there could have been a feature where the game checks how much bigger or smaller than the overlay mask you draw a boss and then changes the mask to the drawn sprite and compensates by making the boss harder or easier depending on how cheap you made the mask etc, a better GUI so you can keep your own sprites and import your friends sprites as well (maybe even different worlds based off of different people's sprites, world 1 is yours, the next few are you friends and the last world is a glitch world with a random mixture of all imported sprites). Idk I'm just spitballing, but the whole thing was essentially a sub-average fangame with a proof-of-concept gimmick that, while interesting, was essentially tacked onto it with very little effort made to integrate it into the gameplay in any meaningful way.

Also I highly doubt it. I'm surprised the game even made it this far honestly.
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Kyir

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #116 on: August 26, 2015, 12:58:34 am »

I would say that any complaints related to the results should be directed at the structure of the contest itself. Accepting judges from an open application to judge a wide variety of games doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. For instance, it was obvious to me watching results video 3 that YoSniper doesn't personally like games with lots of spikes and hard jumps (I'm hesitant to just say "needle" here.) That's fine, but people who don't like entire genres of fangames (let alone be able to play them well) aren't really the most qualified to judge how good they are. If you had an entire pool full of judges who hated needle games, NANG would probably get a bad rating too. If you had a pool full of people who loved jump refresher spam, I would probably be a top contestant despite the fact that I'm a mediocre designer at best.

For future contests I would really recommend letting people submit games for categories with their own judges like "needle," or "troll" or whatever (and maybe an open category for things that don't fit well,) and then just take the winners from each to pit against each other. It would both encourage a wider variety of fangames (since categories with fewer entries would be seen as easier to win) and also ensure that games were at least seen by people who understand the nuances of their respective categories. If a person hates needle games and never plays them, corner jump spam is going to look pretty identical to a well-crafted series of technically challenging obstacles.
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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #117 on: August 26, 2015, 04:15:40 am »

I think that's pointlessly overcomplicated Kyir. You have to remember that this year we had 13 entries and last year we had 12, the minute you start introduce subcategories is the minute you start having mini-competitions of potentially 1 to 2 games which I understand you mean to be more fair but actually becomes less fair just by the virtue of the fact that, like you said, some categories would be laughably easy to win compared to others. I don't think it's fair to assume that because some people have predilections for certain genres they therefore can't appreciate a well crafted game in a separate genre; I don't think YoSniper's dislike of "bullet hell bosses" and needle games is any secret but I've always got the impression that if a game is of a high enough quality in these fields he will acknowledge it, besides YoSniper is only one of a handful of judges. The point of having a wide range of judges with different tastes is exactly so you can get a nuanced cross-section of the fangaming communities tastes, that's why it's open application, we want variety.

If you look at my game, PSIFT, it's very unorthodox and I made a lot of questionable decisions while making it, it's also for the average fangame player a very easy game due to the fact that it only includes Worlds 1 & 2. The fact that, beyond my expectations, it hasn't been voted out yet is testament to the fact that the judges are not voting things out by virtue of arbitrary factors like genre or difficulty. Your implication than NANG is a game that needle players love and non-needle players don't (by virtue of the fact you've seemingly juxtaposed the implication needle players love it with "If you had an entire pool full of judges who hated needle games, NANG would probably get a bad rating too.") illustrates a critical problem with this suggestion: your criticism of the competition runs on the assumption that people who don't traditionally play genres can't have "qualified" opinions on games from those genres and that all likeminded people so vote in each bubble and people who dissenting views should not be allowed to vote in said bubble, which is less representative than when we started. "If you had a pool full of people who loved jump refresher spam, I would probably be a top contestant [...]." The problem here is the same, people can't be predicted like this, and if your assumption is that likeminded people vote in patterns then grouping judges by category just means that voting will become incredibly tepid and boring and people will only vote for the game in the final which was in their category; except this isn't how people vote, they all have different nuanced opinions and it's unfair to treat subjective opinions like strands on a probability tree where you just factor in someone's preferred fangame and arrive at the conclusion that's what they'll vote at.

None of the judges are "qualified", that's what makes this a fair competition, it's just a group of people who love fangames sharing their, equally valid, opinions on the games presented. The fact that's there's god mode removes a skill requirement for judging and I think that's a good thing, because if a game is shittily designed you can often tell by looking at it or playing on god mode (not to mention all the other features of a game, music, aesthetics, originality that can be assessed without high skill level either), even if someone can't complete something doesn't mean they can't have an opinion on it. Not to mention the fact that people can love avoidance games but still be bad at them and still not have played enough of them to have a "qualified" opinion on them.

I honestly think the best course of action is as follows: keep the competition as it is, people can opt into critical voting but the original pack of submissions is subjected to open voting by the community and this creates a shortlist of lets say 5 games for the judges to then choose the winner. The judges should also be able to select a 6th vote if a game they think deserves praise didn't get selected by the community. This not only is more representative by getting the whole communities opinion, but it retains the tightness of a small panel.


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Katz

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #118 on: August 26, 2015, 04:19:10 am »

I can honestly agree with this. To put it short, we don't really need much of subcategories because they're essentially fangames; No need to divide the entire competition over the judges' opinions. I mean if you want to take it to heart on how YoSniper detests needles/avoidances you can do so. There is no need, in any absolution, to ruin the contest whatsoever for this.
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Kyir

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Re: YoSniper's Fangame Contest 2015 *RESULTS*
« Reply #119 on: August 26, 2015, 04:58:41 am »

I personally would argue that a competition is better when opinions aren't considered to be universally equal. Since you (Derf specifically, but in a general sense to everyone with this opinion) want to treat fangames as art, it seems applicable to point out that art competitions generally aren't judged by random people pulled off the street.

The Carnegie International (the one that I can speak most authoritatively about) ran repeatedly for most of a century as one of the most highly regarded contemporary art contests. It was very similar to this contest in that it was driven by one (and on occasion two or three) person's visions and rules, only accepted new/mostly new works, had judging panels that included but did not solely consist of the director, etc. However, the judges were always people with at knowledge, training, or at least respectability in the art world.

There's nothing inherently wrong with inexperienced judges (sorry to all the ones this year and last who are pillars of the community, not talking about any of you,) but if you accept them you're going to get the same situation you were complaining about earlier, where something relatively novel but lacks substance receives undo praise compared to much more thoughtful or better crafted pieces. Exclusively accepting people who are known quantities both ensures that the results of the contest are seen as legitimate measures of quality and allows people to take the judges' biases into consideration. If you know nothing about a person, it's difficult to assess what exactly is influencing their decision, or if much thought went into it all.

As for my proposal: It's true that there weren't enough games this wear to warrant more than two, maybe three, categories. I think changing the structure of the competition, or at least the process of selecting judges, would raise the number of games submitted though. I personally didn't submit this year just because of the silly rules, but I've spoken to a handful of other game makers who didn't submit and who agree that it seems silly having some judges who are far less authoritative in any field than the people participating. I realize that's essentially hearsay since I'm not going to name names, but I can say for sure that I would have gotten over my own distaste for the rules if I thought that the winner of the contest would definitely be the better game.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 05:01:05 am by Kyir »
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